I don’t think either of the two koans are as instructive as desired.
As previously pointed out, a cult can still teach useful information; noticing that you have learned useful information is not sufficient to differentiate a cult from a non-cult.
It seems there are two different interpretations to the ending of the second koan: that the student understood that clothing doesn’t matter, or that he didn’t. It depends on whether the clown suit merely represents Robes 2.0 or whether it is counter-cultish behavior.
--- Robes 2.0: What is the point of the robes, then? If the student is questioning the point of the robes, the answer is not to say, “it doesn’t matter; just focus on my teachings”. Okay, then why not take off the robes? The question goes completely unaddressed. It’s not like the master treated it as a teaching opportunity, where the whole point of the robes is for the student to question the robes. Or was that the point? In which case, the learning occurs more as a “ok, Master is full of shit” moment, rather than “aha I see that Master has taught another great lesson”, which I think is less than ideal.
--- Counter-cultish: What are we supposed to take from this story? The student had a legitimate question which the master refused to answer, and instead solidified a mistaken impression on the student? Sounds like a real wise master.
Could you clarify the mindset behind the question? I am not sure I have a meaningful opinion of it as I am not sure what is meant by the language in the second part of the koan.
Could you clarify the mindset behind the question? I am not sure I have a meaningful opinion of it as I am not sure what is meant by the language in the second part of the koan.
Sure. You were commenting on a post that was riffing on a particular style of Zen koan, and I didn’t quite understand, as you put it, the mindset of the comment. So I figured one step towards clarifying it was figuring out whether you were reacting to the general koan-nature of it, or to something specific about this post within that context. One way to get at that was to get your opinion about other things that share the koan-nature. Ganto’s Axe is among my favorite Zen koans, and also seems to share certain thematic elements with the post you were commenting on, so I picked that one..
I don’t think either of the two koans are as instructive as desired.
As previously pointed out, a cult can still teach useful information; noticing that you have learned useful information is not sufficient to differentiate a cult from a non-cult.
It seems there are two different interpretations to the ending of the second koan: that the student understood that clothing doesn’t matter, or that he didn’t. It depends on whether the clown suit merely represents Robes 2.0 or whether it is counter-cultish behavior.
--- Robes 2.0: What is the point of the robes, then? If the student is questioning the point of the robes, the answer is not to say, “it doesn’t matter; just focus on my teachings”. Okay, then why not take off the robes? The question goes completely unaddressed. It’s not like the master treated it as a teaching opportunity, where the whole point of the robes is for the student to question the robes. Or was that the point? In which case, the learning occurs more as a “ok, Master is full of shit” moment, rather than “aha I see that Master has taught another great lesson”, which I think is less than ideal.
--- Counter-cultish: What are we supposed to take from this story? The student had a legitimate question which the master refused to answer, and instead solidified a mistaken impression on the student? Sounds like a real wise master.
Could you clarify the mindset behind the question? I am not sure I have a meaningful opinion of it as I am not sure what is meant by the language in the second part of the koan.
What is your opinion about the traditional Ganto’s Axe koan?
Could you clarify the mindset behind the question? I am not sure I have a meaningful opinion of it as I am not sure what is meant by the language in the second part of the koan.
Sure. You were commenting on a post that was riffing on a particular style of Zen koan, and I didn’t quite understand, as you put it, the mindset of the comment. So I figured one step towards clarifying it was figuring out whether you were reacting to the general koan-nature of it, or to something specific about this post within that context. One way to get at that was to get your opinion about other things that share the koan-nature. Ganto’s Axe is among my favorite Zen koans, and also seems to share certain thematic elements with the post you were commenting on, so I picked that one..