I already think there is no objective morality, no “should” (in its common usage), and both are in reality a socially constructed thing that will shift over time (relativism I think?, not sure). Any sentence like “You should do X” really just have a consequentialistic meaning of “If you have terminal value V (which the speaker assumed you have), then it is higher utility to do X.”
So which do you believe in? If morality is socially constructed, then what you should do is determined by society, not by your own terminal values. But according to subjectivism you “should” do whatever your terminal values say, which could easily be something anti social.
The two are both not-realism, but that does not make them the same.
You have hinted at an objection to universal morality: but that isn’t the same thing as realism or objectivism. Minimally, an objective truth is not a subjective truth, that is to say, it is not
mind-dependent. Lack of mind dependence does not imply that objective truth needs to be the
same everywhere, which is to say it does not imply universalism. Truths that are objective but not universal
would be truths that vary with objective circumstances: that does not entail subjectivity, because subjectivity is mind
dependence.
I like to use the analogy of big G and little g in physics. Big G is a universal constant, little g is the local acceleration
due to gravity, and will vary from planet to planet (and, in a fine-grained way, at different points on the earths surface). But little g is perfectly objective, for all its lack of universality.
To give some examples that are actually about morality and how it is contextual:
A food-scarce society will develop rules about who can eat how much of which kind of food.
A society without birth control and close to Malthusian limits will develop restrictions on
sexual behaviour, in order to prevent people being born who are doomed to starve, whereas a society with birth control can afford to be more liberal.
Using this three level framework, universal versus objective-but-local versus subjective, lack
of universality does not imply subjectivity.
I have not tried to put the objective morality argument into words and it is half personal experiences and half pure internal thinking.
Anything could be justified that way, if anything can.
It boils down to basically what you said about “objective morality can’t even be described within that framework”
So how sure can you be that the framework (presumably meanign von Neumann rationality) is correct and relevant. Remember, vN didn’t say vNR could solve ethical issues.
People round here like to use vNR for anything and everything, but that’s just a subculture, not a proof of anything.
You probably gave me too much credit for how deep I have thought about morality. Still, I appreciate your effort in leading me to a higher resolution model. (Long reply will come when I have thought more about it)
So which do you believe in? If morality is socially constructed, then what you should do is determined by society, not by your own terminal values. But according to subjectivism you “should” do whatever your terminal values say, which could easily be something anti social.
The two are both not-realism, but that does not make them the same.
You have hinted at an objection to universal morality: but that isn’t the same thing as realism or objectivism. Minimally, an objective truth is not a subjective truth, that is to say, it is not mind-dependent. Lack of mind dependence does not imply that objective truth needs to be the same everywhere, which is to say it does not imply universalism. Truths that are objective but not universal would be truths that vary with objective circumstances: that does not entail subjectivity, because subjectivity is mind dependence.
I like to use the analogy of big G and little g in physics. Big G is a universal constant, little g is the local acceleration due to gravity, and will vary from planet to planet (and, in a fine-grained way, at different points on the earths surface). But little g is perfectly objective, for all its lack of universality.
To give some examples that are actually about morality and how it is contextual:
A food-scarce society will develop rules about who can eat how much of which kind of food.
A society without birth control and close to Malthusian limits will develop restrictions on sexual behaviour, in order to prevent people being born who are doomed to starve, whereas a society with birth control can afford to be more liberal.
Using this three level framework, universal versus objective-but-local versus subjective, lack of universality does not imply subjectivity.
Anything could be justified that way, if anything can.
So how sure can you be that the framework (presumably meanign von Neumann rationality) is correct and relevant. Remember, vN didn’t say vNR could solve ethical issues.
People round here like to use vNR for anything and everything, but that’s just a subculture, not a proof of anything.
You probably gave me too much credit for how deep I have thought about morality. Still, I appreciate your effort in leading me to a higher resolution model. (Long reply will come when I have thought more about it)