But it sure is damning that they feel that way, and that I can’t exactly tell them that they’re wrong.
You could have, though. You could have shown them the many highly-upvoted personal accounts from former Leverage staff and other Leverage-adjacent people. You could have pointed out that there aren’t any positive personal Leverage accounts, any at all, that were downvoted on net. 0 and 1 are not probabilities, but the evidence here is extremely one-sided: the LW zeitgeist approves of positive personal accounts about Leverage. It won’t ostracize you for posting them.
But my guess is that this fear isn’t about Less Wrong the forum at all, it’s about their and your real-world social scene. If that’s true then it makes a lot more sense for them to be worried (or so I infer, I don’t live in California). But it makes a lot less to bring to bring it up here, in a discussion about changing LW culture: getting rid of the posts and posters you disapprove of won’t make them go away in real life. Talking about it here, as though it were an argument in any direction at all about LW standards, is just a non sequitur.
Thanks for gathering these. They are genuinely helpful (several of them I missed).
But yes, as you inferred, the people I’ve talked to are scared about real-life consequences such as losing funding or having trouble finding employment, which are problems they don’t currently have but suspect they will if they speak up.
I reiterate that this is a fact about them, as oppose to a fact about reality, but they’re not crazy to have some weight on it.
When it comes to the real-life consequences I think we’re on the same page: I think it’s plausible that they’d face consequences for speaking up and I don’t think they’re crazy to weigh it in their decision-making (I do note, for example, that none of the people who put their names on their positive Leverage accounts seem to live in California, except for the ones who still work there). I am not that attached to any of these beliefs since all my data is second- and third-hand, but within those limitations I agree.
But again, the things they’re worried about are not happening on Less Wrong. Bringing up their plight here, in the context of curating Less Wrong, is not Lawful: it cannot help anybody think about Less Wrong, only hurt and distract. If they need help, we can’t help them by changing Less Wrong; we have to change the people who are giving out party invites and job interviews.
I expect that many of the people who are giving out party invites and job interviews are strongly influenced by LW. If that’s the case, then we can prevent some of the things Duncan mentions by changing LW in the direction of being more supportive of good epistemics (regardless of which “side” that comes down on), with the hope of flow-through effects.
I expect that many of the people who are giving out party invites and job interviews are strongly influenced by LW.
The influence can’t be too strong, or they’d be influenced by the zeitgeist’s willingness to welcome pro-Leverage perspectives, right? Or maybe you disagree with that characterization of LW-the-site?
Things get complicated in situations where e.g. 70% of the group is welcoming and 30% of the group is silently judging and will enact their disapproval later. And the zeitgeist that is willing to welcome pro-Leverage perspectives might not be willing to actively pressure people to not discriminate against pro-Leverage folk. Like, they might be fine with somebody being gay, but not motivated enough to step in if someone else is being homophobic in a grocery store parking lot, metaphorically speaking.
(This may not describe the actual situation here, of course. But again it’s a fear I feel like I can’t dismiss or rule out.)
You could have, though. You could have shown them the many highly-upvoted personal accounts from former Leverage staff and other Leverage-adjacent people. You could have pointed out that there aren’t any positive personal Leverage accounts, any at all, that were downvoted on net. 0 and 1 are not probabilities, but the evidence here is extremely one-sided: the LW zeitgeist approves of positive personal accounts about Leverage. It won’t ostracize you for posting them.
But my guess is that this fear isn’t about Less Wrong the forum at all, it’s about their and your real-world social scene. If that’s true then it makes a lot more sense for them to be worried (or so I infer, I don’t live in California). But it makes a lot less to bring to bring it up here, in a discussion about changing LW culture: getting rid of the posts and posters you disapprove of won’t make them go away in real life. Talking about it here, as though it were an argument in any direction at all about LW standards, is just a non sequitur.
Thanks for gathering these. They are genuinely helpful (several of them I missed).
But yes, as you inferred, the people I’ve talked to are scared about real-life consequences such as losing funding or having trouble finding employment, which are problems they don’t currently have but suspect they will if they speak up.
I reiterate that this is a fact about them, as oppose to a fact about reality, but they’re not crazy to have some weight on it.
When it comes to the real-life consequences I think we’re on the same page: I think it’s plausible that they’d face consequences for speaking up and I don’t think they’re crazy to weigh it in their decision-making (I do note, for example, that none of the people who put their names on their positive Leverage accounts seem to live in California, except for the ones who still work there). I am not that attached to any of these beliefs since all my data is second- and third-hand, but within those limitations I agree.
But again, the things they’re worried about are not happening on Less Wrong. Bringing up their plight here, in the context of curating Less Wrong, is not Lawful: it cannot help anybody think about Less Wrong, only hurt and distract. If they need help, we can’t help them by changing Less Wrong; we have to change the people who are giving out party invites and job interviews.
I expect that many of the people who are giving out party invites and job interviews are strongly influenced by LW. If that’s the case, then we can prevent some of the things Duncan mentions by changing LW in the direction of being more supportive of good epistemics (regardless of which “side” that comes down on), with the hope of flow-through effects.
The influence can’t be too strong, or they’d be influenced by the zeitgeist’s willingness to welcome pro-Leverage perspectives, right? Or maybe you disagree with that characterization of LW-the-site?
Things get complicated in situations where e.g. 70% of the group is welcoming and 30% of the group is silently judging and will enact their disapproval later. And the zeitgeist that is willing to welcome pro-Leverage perspectives might not be willing to actively pressure people to not discriminate against pro-Leverage folk. Like, they might be fine with somebody being gay, but not motivated enough to step in if someone else is being homophobic in a grocery store parking lot, metaphorically speaking.
(This may not describe the actual situation here, of course. But again it’s a fear I feel like I can’t dismiss or rule out.)