I think the most interesting part of this ending (the thing that really surprised me the most) was the idea of Dumbledore not holding an idiot ball, nor being crazy, nor even being “apparently crazy just for the sake of complex strategically cultivated opacity”… but instead being the embodiment of the biggest point of departure from canon in that he knows every prophesy and thereby caused many other points of departure semi-intentionally.
Also, having Dumbledore essentially become the half-understanding servant of whatever it is that causes prophesies, turns the whole story into something that is fundamentally about time travel in a way I really wasn’t expecting.
Maybe I should have. Eliezer’s notes have mentioned that he thinks very highly of HP and the Wastelands of Time, but I thought that the time traveling themes would mostly be restricted to time turners, and time turners wouldn’t be very powerful, because otherwise it would disrupt the rationality theme...
This makes me think that it would be moderately rewarding to read HPMOR itself again to try to examine Dumbledore’s actions more carefully. Like… what if he said what he said during the feast on the first night (when Harry was drinking comed-tea) because it was what the prophesies said he had to do? How constrained was he? Was there really “crazy act” on his part, mixed into the prophesy hacking, to hide the prophesy hacking better? How much free agency did he have leftover? And for that matter, how much did Eliezer track such issues?
If this was just the finish of the first draft, rather than the entire and complete finish of the series, I’d expect editing to shore up the coherence of the necessities of time travel.
Knowing that the plotting was worked out the way a TV series is written it seems to imply that early content was probably optimized more to hook readers than to align with the rigors of plot. But still, my guess is that the core reason for Dumbledore to seem crazy was already in Eliezer’s mind in the first few chapters. Sadly, there will be no more data to settle the question honestly, but it was a fun game while it lasted. I’m sad the data source has shut down, but happy to have played :-)
EDIT: Oh! Also it makes Dumbledore being outside of time (instead of actually dead) more interesting. Presumably he cannot be “raised from the dead” from this position. Also, it appears that there is some room for him to be causally related to the source of prophecies, from his position outside time… maybe? ;-)
I saw it as Dumbledore having chosen what persona to cultivate in order to best get away with his actions. Take, as a representative problem, that he has to make sure Harry carries his father’s rock. He could try to assert authority and order it, but that would make him be seen as a tyrant. He could try to invent a good explanation, but he probably couldn’t actually convince Harry, since he can’t give the true reason and there isn’t actually any other good reason. But by playing the benevolent eccentric, he can get Harry to humor him with minimal harm to his reputation.
What I love about this twist is how it changes the interpretation of so many other things that were said throughout the story. For example:
“Purposeless?” said Professor Quirrell. “Oh, but the madness of Dumbledore is not that he is purposeless, but that he has too many purposes.
It turns out PQ was right in that the madness of Dumbledore was not purposeless, however much his going around and “snipping all the threads of destiny” to constrain future events would, to anyone without all the knowledge of prophecy, look like many divergent purposes. Even Dumbledore himself didn’t know how or why some of them fit into the whole picture. But it was all done in service of his one true goal. And if the service of that goal had involved killing Harry or framing Hermione? Well,
“Who knows what the Headmaster thinks he has reason to do, when he has found reason to do so many strange things already.”
I think the most interesting part of this ending (the thing that really surprised me the most) was the idea of Dumbledore not holding an idiot ball, nor being crazy, nor even being “apparently crazy just for the sake of complex strategically cultivated opacity”… but instead being the embodiment of the biggest point of departure from canon in that he knows every prophesy and thereby caused many other points of departure semi-intentionally.
Also, having Dumbledore essentially become the half-understanding servant of whatever it is that causes prophesies, turns the whole story into something that is fundamentally about time travel in a way I really wasn’t expecting.
Maybe I should have. Eliezer’s notes have mentioned that he thinks very highly of HP and the Wastelands of Time, but I thought that the time traveling themes would mostly be restricted to time turners, and time turners wouldn’t be very powerful, because otherwise it would disrupt the rationality theme...
This makes me think that it would be moderately rewarding to read HPMOR itself again to try to examine Dumbledore’s actions more carefully. Like… what if he said what he said during the feast on the first night (when Harry was drinking comed-tea) because it was what the prophesies said he had to do? How constrained was he? Was there really “crazy act” on his part, mixed into the prophesy hacking, to hide the prophesy hacking better? How much free agency did he have leftover? And for that matter, how much did Eliezer track such issues?
If this was just the finish of the first draft, rather than the entire and complete finish of the series, I’d expect editing to shore up the coherence of the necessities of time travel.
Knowing that the plotting was worked out the way a TV series is written it seems to imply that early content was probably optimized more to hook readers than to align with the rigors of plot. But still, my guess is that the core reason for Dumbledore to seem crazy was already in Eliezer’s mind in the first few chapters. Sadly, there will be no more data to settle the question honestly, but it was a fun game while it lasted. I’m sad the data source has shut down, but happy to have played :-)
EDIT: Oh! Also it makes Dumbledore being outside of time (instead of actually dead) more interesting. Presumably he cannot be “raised from the dead” from this position. Also, it appears that there is some room for him to be causally related to the source of prophecies, from his position outside time… maybe? ;-)
Dumbledore receives prophecies.
Dumbledore acts them out.
As a result dumbledore winds up outside of time.
Dumbledore sends prophecies.
Profit.
I saw it as Dumbledore having chosen what persona to cultivate in order to best get away with his actions. Take, as a representative problem, that he has to make sure Harry carries his father’s rock. He could try to assert authority and order it, but that would make him be seen as a tyrant. He could try to invent a good explanation, but he probably couldn’t actually convince Harry, since he can’t give the true reason and there isn’t actually any other good reason. But by playing the benevolent eccentric, he can get Harry to humor him with minimal harm to his reputation.
What I love about this twist is how it changes the interpretation of so many other things that were said throughout the story. For example:
It turns out PQ was right in that the madness of Dumbledore was not purposeless, however much his going around and “snipping all the threads of destiny” to constrain future events would, to anyone without all the knowledge of prophecy, look like many divergent purposes. Even Dumbledore himself didn’t know how or why some of them fit into the whole picture. But it was all done in service of his one true goal. And if the service of that goal had involved killing Harry or framing Hermione? Well,