I went back to your original comment, the nub of which I take to be this: you tolerate as self-consistent the belief of some groups of theists, on the grounds that their beliefs have no empirical consequences, and that is precisely what marks these beliefs as “faith”.
I was responding to the idea that theists are involved in blatant double-think where they anticipate ways that their beliefs can be empirically refuted and find preemptive defenses. The idea of “separate magisteria” may have been one such defense, but it is the last: once they identify God as non-empirical they don’t have to worry about CO2 detectors or flour or X-ray machines—ever. I think that the continued insistence on thinking of God as a creature hidden in the garage that should leave some kind of empirical trace reveals the inferential distance between a world view which requires that beliefs meet empirical standards and one that does not.
You suggest that the “separate magisteria” is a pretense. This appears to be along the lines of what Eliezer is arguing as well; that it is a convenient ‘get out of jail free’ card. I think this is an interesting hypothesis—I don’t object to it, since it makes some sense.
We base our views about religion on our personal experiences with it. I feel like I encounter people with views much more reasonable than the ones described here fairly often. I thought that ‘separate magesteria’ described their thinking pretty well, since religion doesn’t effect their pragmatic, day-to-day decisions. (Moral/ethical behavior is a big exception of course.) I’ve encountered people who insist that prayers have the power to change events, but I don’t think this is a reasonable view.
I thought people mostly prayed to focus intentions and unload anxiety. Some data on what people actually believe would be extremely useful.
I polled some theist friends who happened to be online, asking “What do you think the useful effects of prayer are, on you, the subject on which you pray, or anything else?” and followup questions to get clarification/elaboration.
Episcopalian: “The most concrete effect of prayer is to help me calm down about stressful situations. The subject is generally not directly affected. It is my outlook that is most often changed. Psychologically, it helps me to let go of the cause of stress. It’s like a spiritual form of delegation.”
Irish Catholic With Jesuit Tendencies: “The Ignation spirituality system has a lot to do with using prayer to focus and distance yourself from the emotions and petty concerns surrounding the problem. Through detatched analysis, one can gain better perspective on the correct choice. … Well, ostensibly, it’s akin to meditation, and other forms of calming reflection possible in other religions. For me, though, I tend to pray, a) in times of crisis, b) in Mass, and c) for other people who I think can use whatever karmic juju my clicking of proverbial chicken lips can muster.” (On being asked whether the “karmic juju” affects the people prayed for:) “It’s one of those things. “I think I can, I think I can.”″ (I said: “So it helps you help them?”) “I guess. Often, there’s little else you can do for folks.”
Mormon: “Well, I think it depends on the need of the person involved and the ability of that person to take care of him/herself. I have heard stories from people I trust where miraculous things have occured as the result of prayer. But I find that, for me personally, prayer gives me comfort, courage, and sometimes, through prayer, my thoughts are oriented in ways that allow me to see a problem from an angle I couldn’t before and therefore solve it. Is it beneficial? Yes. Is it divine intervention? Hard to say. Even if it’s just someone feeling more positive as a result of a prayer, I think it’s a benefit—particularly for the sick. Positive attitudes seem to help a lot there.”
Even better, a study. (Upshot: Praying for someone has a significant effect on the praying individual’s inclination to be selfless and forgiving toward that person.)
Thank you, Alicorn. It’s very helpful to have any data. Even data from people that are educated and comfortable with atheism, like myself, is better than atheists just speculating about what theists think.
This was a sample of friends of an atheistic philosopher who were answering a question by that same philosopher. The sample, unfortunately, tells me almost nothing about the general population.
I’ve encountered people who insist that prayers have the power to change events, but I don’t think this is a reasonable view.
Believing in a specific God (who, for example, promises to answer prayers) is an unreasonable view. Believing in the same God but also believing that prayers are unable to change events is even more unreasonable. It’s just more practical.
I was responding to the idea that theists are involved in blatant double-think where they anticipate ways that their beliefs can be empirically refuted and find preemptive defenses. The idea of “separate magisteria” may have been one such defense, but it is the last: once they identify God as non-empirical they don’t have to worry about CO2 detectors or flour or X-ray machines—ever. I think that the continued insistence on thinking of God as a creature hidden in the garage that should leave some kind of empirical trace reveals the inferential distance between a world view which requires that beliefs meet empirical standards and one that does not.
You suggest that the “separate magisteria” is a pretense. This appears to be along the lines of what Eliezer is arguing as well; that it is a convenient ‘get out of jail free’ card. I think this is an interesting hypothesis—I don’t object to it, since it makes some sense.
We base our views about religion on our personal experiences with it. I feel like I encounter people with views much more reasonable than the ones described here fairly often. I thought that ‘separate magesteria’ described their thinking pretty well, since religion doesn’t effect their pragmatic, day-to-day decisions. (Moral/ethical behavior is a big exception of course.) I’ve encountered people who insist that prayers have the power to change events, but I don’t think this is a reasonable view.
I thought people mostly prayed to focus intentions and unload anxiety. Some data on what people actually believe would be extremely useful.
I polled some theist friends who happened to be online, asking “What do you think the useful effects of prayer are, on you, the subject on which you pray, or anything else?” and followup questions to get clarification/elaboration.
Episcopalian: “The most concrete effect of prayer is to help me calm down about stressful situations. The subject is generally not directly affected. It is my outlook that is most often changed. Psychologically, it helps me to let go of the cause of stress. It’s like a spiritual form of delegation.”
Irish Catholic With Jesuit Tendencies: “The Ignation spirituality system has a lot to do with using prayer to focus and distance yourself from the emotions and petty concerns surrounding the problem. Through detatched analysis, one can gain better perspective on the correct choice. … Well, ostensibly, it’s akin to meditation, and other forms of calming reflection possible in other religions. For me, though, I tend to pray, a) in times of crisis, b) in Mass, and c) for other people who I think can use whatever karmic juju my clicking of proverbial chicken lips can muster.” (On being asked whether the “karmic juju” affects the people prayed for:) “It’s one of those things. “I think I can, I think I can.”″ (I said: “So it helps you help them?”) “I guess. Often, there’s little else you can do for folks.”
Mormon: “Well, I think it depends on the need of the person involved and the ability of that person to take care of him/herself. I have heard stories from people I trust where miraculous things have occured as the result of prayer. But I find that, for me personally, prayer gives me comfort, courage, and sometimes, through prayer, my thoughts are oriented in ways that allow me to see a problem from an angle I couldn’t before and therefore solve it. Is it beneficial? Yes. Is it divine intervention? Hard to say. Even if it’s just someone feeling more positive as a result of a prayer, I think it’s a benefit—particularly for the sick. Positive attitudes seem to help a lot there.”
So it looks like byrnema is right!
(All quotes taken with permission)
Even better, a study. (Upshot: Praying for someone has a significant effect on the praying individual’s inclination to be selfless and forgiving toward that person.)
Thank you, Alicorn. It’s very helpful to have any data. Even data from people that are educated and comfortable with atheism, like myself, is better than atheists just speculating about what theists think.
This was a sample of friends of an atheistic philosopher who were answering a question by that same philosopher. The sample, unfortunately, tells me almost nothing about the general population.
Believing in a specific God (who, for example, promises to answer prayers) is an unreasonable view. Believing in the same God but also believing that prayers are unable to change events is even more unreasonable. It’s just more practical.
I’d like to clarify that I’ve not stuck my neck out that any beliefs are reasonable. I said I often encounter beliefs that seem much more reasonable.
Even more? Why?
Roughly speaking:
p(A) = 0.0001
p(A && !A) = 0