Did anyone else find it increasingly implausible that the teachers kept trying to speak to Harry while he was thinking? The first one or even two approaches made sense, but if a person who has just lost a close friend says that they want to be alone until dinner, the only sensible course of action seems to be to say “okay” and leave them alone. It’d be one thing if he hadn’t spoken for anyone in a month, but this was just a few hours: it’d have been completely reasonable for anyone to want to be alone for that long.
Granted, given that this is Harry, they might have thought that he was in risk of doing something really rash… but if they feared that he’d do something so bad that it wouldn’t have been enough for them to guard the door to the room where he was in, then McGonagall would have been insane to unlock his Time Turner! And if they thought that he was in danger of developing some really crazy plan while thinking, it should have been obvious after the first couple of times that interrupting him now would just make him more unreceptive, and it would have been better to wait until dinner.
I’m just drawing a complete blank here—why did they keep doing it? Doesn’t seem to make any sense to me.
Quirrell is trying to alienate Harry from his lifelines by manipulating everyone into being unhelpfully helpful. It’s one of the core emotional triggers for the Harry, and the Defense Professor knows this.
After this chapter I’ve updated heavily in favor of Quirrell being genuinely terrified and trying to run damage control. That means giving him more emotional lifelines.
Admittedly, it also probably means making Harry dependent on an information source Quirrell can trust not to say too much, i.e. himself, but…
That does not seem to jive with the last lines of chapter 89, which are first-person accounts of Quirrell’s feelings.
He’d felt the fury the boy had directed at some annoyance who was likely Dumbledore; followed by an unknown resolution whose unyielding hardness even he found adequate. With any luck, the boy had just discarded his foolish little reluctances.
Unseen by anyone, the Defense Professor’s lips curved up in a thin smile. Despite its little ups and downs, on the whole this had been a surprisingly good day.
EDIT: I also updated in favor of Quirrell being genuinely terrified after chapter 92, but only slightly. The evidence from chapter 89 still dominates in my mind since 89 has an uncensored account of Quirrell’s true feelings.
Note for readability: I did not realize that the prophecy was dialog, said aloud by Trelawney, until I read this comment. I read the prophecy as Quirrell thinking to himself, narrating for the reader why he was happy.
First time I read that, I interpreted it as “it would not be enough to prevent Harry from tearing the world apart”. But there is another possible interpretation : if we consider that Quirrelmort was trying to turn Harry dark, and killing Hermione was part of that plan, then we can interpret it completely to the opposite : the killing Hermione won’t be enough to turn Harry dark.
I don’t give a high probability to the second interpretation, but it does stand on its own feet.
For a rationalist fic, where you’re meant to be able to work things out though, it does seem a bit ‘magical’ if the answer to every “well that’s a bit weird” is “Quirrell probably did it”. It’s fitting the evidence to your theory.
What weird things do we know Quirrell wasn’t behind?
Dumbledore is Santa Clause and sneaks into students’ bedrooms to leave them notes.
Snape was helping SPHEW.
Whoever memory charmed Rita Skeeter (Gilderoy Lockhart?) was almost certainly not Quirrell.
Harry himself was behind the weird events in Chapter 13. In fact, Harry is behind a lot of the weird events in the book, but we don’t always realize that because we see them from his point of view.
Whoever memory charmed Rita Skeeter (Gilderoy Lockhart?) was almost certainly not Quirrell.
What? Why? There was that time that he threatened her in chapter 25. Also, it would explain how he knew that Harry had enlisted the Weasley twins.
There’s a motive, too. At lunch afterward, he made Harry deal with the cognitive dissonance of ruining somebody’s life, yet feeling proud of himself at the same time. If I was Quirrell I would have helped fake the story just to make Harry rationalize destroying Rita Skeeter.
It’s possible that the Weasley twins hired Quirrell and not Lockhart, but I tend to think that Quirrell was genuinely surprised at the newspaper article about Harry’s betrothal and it took him a few minutes to realize it was done with a false memory charm. Quirrell’s smart, but not omniscient.
For any weird thing, you may be able to find someone who thinks that “Quirrell did it”. That doesn’t mean some faction out there believes Quirrell is responsible for every weird thing—different people think Quirrell is responsible for different weird things.
Well, (in chapter 90), McGonagall’s first visit seemed to be of her own accord but then the Defense Professor went in and upon returning said this to her:
And though it is not my own area of expertise, Deputy Headmistress, if there is any way you can imagine to convince the boy to stop sinking further into his grief and madness—any way at all to undo the resolutions he is coming to—then I suggest you resort to it immediately.”
Manipulating and convincing people of things is absolutely Quirrell’s area of expertise and it seems plausible that he realizes that putting immense pressure on McGonagall to do something (because poor old Quirrell sure can’t!) will cause her to make poor decisions regarding whether Harry should be left alone and/or unobstructed in his activities.
Further supported by Snape’s line from when he enters the room at the beginning of chapter 51:
“I also cannot imagine what the Deputy Headmistress is thinking,” said the Potions Master of Hogwarts. “Unless I am meant to serve as a warning of where it will lead you, if you decide to take the blame for her death upon yourself.”
and by the continuing pressure Quirrell exerts on McGonagall at the end of chapter 52:
“That would be worse than pointless. Dumbledore cannot reach the boy. At best he is wise enough to know this and make things no worse. I lack the requisite frame of mind. You are the one who—but I see that you still look for others to save you.”
Again Quirrell cites his own inability to help with the problem and now disqualifies Dumbledore as well. The last part in particular echos Harry’s criticism of her ineffectiveness and I wouldn’t be surprised if Quirrell was somehow aware of their exchange and using McGonagall’s weakened confidence to spur her to action.
So Quirrell seems to be manipulating McGonagall directly and everyone else by extension.
I suspect Quirrell was aware of the exchange, if he can do the same trick as in canon with names:
“No! You-Know-Who killed Hermione!” She was hardly aware of what she was saying, that she hadn’t screened the room against who might be listening. “Not you! No matter what else you could’ve done, it’s not you who killed her, it was Voldemort! If you can’t believe that you’ll go mad, Harry!”
Specific mention of not screening the room, and then saying the V-word out loud.
That is a good point. And in canon, it was a useful thing to do since it was only the Order & Co. who dared say the name, allowing for decent signal to noise.
I’d thought maybe in HP:MoR the order might be showing more caution, but in Multiple Hypothesis Testing Dumbledore uses the word—and with Moody there. I’d expect the HP:MoR versions of Dumbledore and Moody to to avoid it if they thought there was serious risk.
That said, the specific mention of not screening for listeners does still jump out at me like a Hint.
It struck me as a hint as well, but I don’t think it was specifically saying Voldemort’s name that did it. It’s just that she openly states that she believes him to be alive and active, and thus reveals to a surreptitious listener that she—and likely Dumbledore—have this knowledge or are acting under these beliefs. That’s more than enough, given the interest that the murderer and Quirrell (if they are different people) would have in the room at the time.
Did anyone else find it increasingly implausible that the teachers kept trying to speak to Harry while he was thinking? The first one or even two approaches made sense, but if a person who has just lost a close friend says that they want to be alone until dinner, the only sensible course of action seems to be to say “okay” and leave them alone.
Eh. In more typical situations it isn’t that odd to force people who want to be alone in bleak times to not be alone. (I’m not sure if the primary impetus here is an anti-suicide measure, the thought that it improves mood, despite the annoyance, or the inability of people who want to help to convince themselves they are helping without visible action.) That Quirrel recommended it makes it more sensible (though, as the strong reader suspicion goes, Quirrel is trying to sabotage their relationship with Harry), even though Harry protests.
McGonagall may have been insane to unlock the Time-Turner, but she was simply incapable of withstanding the emotional pressure Harry suddenly put her under. Doubtless it is not something she had originally intended to do, and she may well regret it horribly once she regains the capacity for rational thought.
Dumbledore spied on their conversation, though—if he’d considered the matter that serious, he ought to have stepped in and taken the Time Turner or re-locked it.
If McGonagall wouldn’t, Harry would go to Dumbledore. It’s extremly unlikely that Harry wouldn’t get his Time-Turner unlocked in the situation as Harry is willing to alienate the two but they aren’t willing to alienate Harry.
Harry is extremely creative, with an intent to kill, powers others know not, and a Time Turner. He killed a troll and escaped from Azkaban using his unique transfiguration skills.
Harry is dangerous and desperate. He’s not just some depressed kid who wants to be left alone, he’s an apocalypse waiting to happen.
McGonagall would have been insane to unlock his Time Turner!
Insane, or just playing by the rules, as usual? Very dumb, as I commented elsewhere, to give a desperate Harry unfettered control of his Time Turner, at his prompting.
I think Minerva herself considered it worthy of note that Dumbledore had used Transfiguration in combat and was still alive. She should know that Harry has joined this elite group. Now, you could use this as evidence of his recklessness if you believe there were lots of people like Harry who died. But I don’t believe he would use some of the …inventive solutions people have proposed, nor would Minerva believe it.
I think she should actually have unlocked his Time-Turner after Bellatrix, or at least after the trial, though she made the right decision by locking it when she did.
Now, you could use this as evidence of his recklessness
I wouldn’t. That’s the rule following MInerva talking. She may have retired. We might see the new Griffindor Minerva doing what it takes to win, taking every edge she can in transfiguration. Harry’s rock trick should be trivial for her.
Had the first two been Macgonnagle and the Defense Professor, then the rest make a bit more sense in that the Defense Professor urged Macgonnagle to do whatever it took to get Harry off his current path, and, well, Harry had just lectured her about how responsibility works, and so she was in a state of mind that demanded action.
That said, you’re totally right: continuing to throw potential emotional bonds at him to try and cheer him up wasn’t the best idea, at least not so soon. Surely Macgonnagle is smart enough to know that Harry knew exactly what was going on, and would therefore be less receptive? It’s a general trend when working with stubborn and upset people, and I imagine this is no less true among Hogwarts students, and thinking about it for five seconds should have made it clear that it’d only be worse with Harry. I suppose she couldn’t think of anything better to try.
It wasn’t just McGonagall, though—Dumbledore was the one who fetched Harry’s parents, even though he had listened to Harry’s and McGonagall’s conversation and thus knew exactly what the situation was. Not to mention all the other teachers who she had clearly briefed on the situation before they went in.
Did anyone else find it increasingly implausible that the teachers kept trying to speak to Harry while he was thinking? The first one or even two approaches made sense, but if a person who has just lost a close friend says that they want to be alone until dinner, the only sensible course of action seems to be to say “okay” and leave them alone. It’d be one thing if he hadn’t spoken for anyone in a month, but this was just a few hours: it’d have been completely reasonable for anyone to want to be alone for that long.
Granted, given that this is Harry, they might have thought that he was in risk of doing something really rash… but if they feared that he’d do something so bad that it wouldn’t have been enough for them to guard the door to the room where he was in, then McGonagall would have been insane to unlock his Time Turner! And if they thought that he was in danger of developing some really crazy plan while thinking, it should have been obvious after the first couple of times that interrupting him now would just make him more unreceptive, and it would have been better to wait until dinner.
I’m just drawing a complete blank here—why did they keep doing it? Doesn’t seem to make any sense to me.
Quirrell is trying to alienate Harry from his lifelines by manipulating everyone into being unhelpfully helpful. It’s one of the core emotional triggers for the Harry, and the Defense Professor knows this.
After this chapter I’ve updated heavily in favor of Quirrell being genuinely terrified and trying to run damage control. That means giving him more emotional lifelines.
Admittedly, it also probably means making Harry dependent on an information source Quirrell can trust not to say too much, i.e. himself, but…
That does not seem to jive with the last lines of chapter 89, which are first-person accounts of Quirrell’s feelings.
EDIT: I also updated in favor of Quirrell being genuinely terrified after chapter 92, but only slightly. The evidence from chapter 89 still dominates in my mind since 89 has an uncensored account of Quirrell’s true feelings.
And quite specifically, ironically, and counterpointedly placed before the prophecy.
Note for readability: I did not realize that the prophecy was dialog, said aloud by Trelawney, until I read this comment. I read the prophecy as Quirrell thinking to himself, narrating for the reader why he was happy.
From 93:
Woop. There goes that theory :-).
First time I read that, I interpreted it as “it would not be enough to prevent Harry from tearing the world apart”. But there is another possible interpretation : if we consider that Quirrelmort was trying to turn Harry dark, and killing Hermione was part of that plan, then we can interpret it completely to the opposite : the killing Hermione won’t be enough to turn Harry dark.
I don’t give a high probability to the second interpretation, but it does stand on its own feet.
For a rationalist fic, where you’re meant to be able to work things out though, it does seem a bit ‘magical’ if the answer to every “well that’s a bit weird” is “Quirrell probably did it”. It’s fitting the evidence to your theory.
What weird things do we know Quirrell wasn’t behind?
Dumbledore is Santa Clause and sneaks into students’ bedrooms to leave them notes.
Snape was helping SPHEW.
Whoever memory charmed Rita Skeeter (Gilderoy Lockhart?) was almost certainly not Quirrell.
Harry himself was behind the weird events in Chapter 13. In fact, Harry is behind a lot of the weird events in the book, but we don’t always realize that because we see them from his point of view.
The universe is behind Comed-Tea.
Anything else?
What? Why? There was that time that he threatened her in chapter 25. Also, it would explain how he knew that Harry had enlisted the Weasley twins.
There’s a motive, too. At lunch afterward, he made Harry deal with the cognitive dissonance of ruining somebody’s life, yet feeling proud of himself at the same time. If I was Quirrell I would have helped fake the story just to make Harry rationalize destroying Rita Skeeter.
It’s possible that the Weasley twins hired Quirrell and not Lockhart, but I tend to think that Quirrell was genuinely surprised at the newspaper article about Harry’s betrothal and it took him a few minutes to realize it was done with a false memory charm. Quirrell’s smart, but not omniscient.
Good point. Now if only Quirrell wasn’t actually behind 75% of all the weird things happening in the story (as far as we can tell)...
For any weird thing, you may be able to find someone who thinks that “Quirrell did it”. That doesn’t mean some faction out there believes Quirrell is responsible for every weird thing—different people think Quirrell is responsible for different weird things.
It wasn’t done at Quirrel’s suggestion, though, as far as we can tell.
Well, (in chapter 90), McGonagall’s first visit seemed to be of her own accord but then the Defense Professor went in and upon returning said this to her:
Manipulating and convincing people of things is absolutely Quirrell’s area of expertise and it seems plausible that he realizes that putting immense pressure on McGonagall to do something (because poor old Quirrell sure can’t!) will cause her to make poor decisions regarding whether Harry should be left alone and/or unobstructed in his activities.
Further supported by Snape’s line from when he enters the room at the beginning of chapter 51:
and by the continuing pressure Quirrell exerts on McGonagall at the end of chapter 52:
Again Quirrell cites his own inability to help with the problem and now disqualifies Dumbledore as well. The last part in particular echos Harry’s criticism of her ineffectiveness and I wouldn’t be surprised if Quirrell was somehow aware of their exchange and using McGonagall’s weakened confidence to spur her to action.
So Quirrell seems to be manipulating McGonagall directly and everyone else by extension.
I suspect Quirrell was aware of the exchange, if he can do the same trick as in canon with names:
Specific mention of not screening the room, and then saying the V-word out loud.
Are you talking about the Taboo? Because I really got the impression that he couldn’t implement it until he was in charge of the Ministry.
That is a good point. And in canon, it was a useful thing to do since it was only the Order & Co. who dared say the name, allowing for decent signal to noise.
I’d thought maybe in HP:MoR the order might be showing more caution, but in Multiple Hypothesis Testing Dumbledore uses the word—and with Moody there. I’d expect the HP:MoR versions of Dumbledore and Moody to to avoid it if they thought there was serious risk.
That said, the specific mention of not screening for listeners does still jump out at me like a Hint.
It struck me as a hint as well, but I don’t think it was specifically saying Voldemort’s name that did it. It’s just that she openly states that she believes him to be alive and active, and thus reveals to a surreptitious listener that she—and likely Dumbledore—have this knowledge or are acting under these beliefs. That’s more than enough, given the interest that the murderer and Quirrell (if they are different people) would have in the room at the time.
Eh. In more typical situations it isn’t that odd to force people who want to be alone in bleak times to not be alone. (I’m not sure if the primary impetus here is an anti-suicide measure, the thought that it improves mood, despite the annoyance, or the inability of people who want to help to convince themselves they are helping without visible action.) That Quirrel recommended it makes it more sensible (though, as the strong reader suspicion goes, Quirrel is trying to sabotage their relationship with Harry), even though Harry protests.
McGonagall may have been insane to unlock the Time-Turner, but she was simply incapable of withstanding the emotional pressure Harry suddenly put her under. Doubtless it is not something she had originally intended to do, and she may well regret it horribly once she regains the capacity for rational thought.
Dumbledore spied on their conversation, though—if he’d considered the matter that serious, he ought to have stepped in and taken the Time Turner or re-locked it.
At the price of alienating Harry a good bit further, of course.
If McGonagall wouldn’t, Harry would go to Dumbledore. It’s extremly unlikely that Harry wouldn’t get his Time-Turner unlocked in the situation as Harry is willing to alienate the two but they aren’t willing to alienate Harry.
Harry is extremely creative, with an intent to kill, powers others know not, and a Time Turner. He killed a troll and escaped from Azkaban using his unique transfiguration skills.
Harry is dangerous and desperate. He’s not just some depressed kid who wants to be left alone, he’s an apocalypse waiting to happen.
Insane, or just playing by the rules, as usual? Very dumb, as I commented elsewhere, to give a desperate Harry unfettered control of his Time Turner, at his prompting.
I think Minerva herself considered it worthy of note that Dumbledore had used Transfiguration in combat and was still alive. She should know that Harry has joined this elite group. Now, you could use this as evidence of his recklessness if you believe there were lots of people like Harry who died. But I don’t believe he would use some of the …inventive solutions people have proposed, nor would Minerva believe it.
I think she should actually have unlocked his Time-Turner after Bellatrix, or at least after the trial, though she made the right decision by locking it when she did.
I wouldn’t. That’s the rule following MInerva talking. She may have retired. We might see the new Griffindor Minerva doing what it takes to win, taking every edge she can in transfiguration. Harry’s rock trick should be trivial for her.
Had the first two been Macgonnagle and the Defense Professor, then the rest make a bit more sense in that the Defense Professor urged Macgonnagle to do whatever it took to get Harry off his current path, and, well, Harry had just lectured her about how responsibility works, and so she was in a state of mind that demanded action.
That said, you’re totally right: continuing to throw potential emotional bonds at him to try and cheer him up wasn’t the best idea, at least not so soon. Surely Macgonnagle is smart enough to know that Harry knew exactly what was going on, and would therefore be less receptive? It’s a general trend when working with stubborn and upset people, and I imagine this is no less true among Hogwarts students, and thinking about it for five seconds should have made it clear that it’d only be worse with Harry. I suppose she couldn’t think of anything better to try.
It wasn’t just McGonagall, though—Dumbledore was the one who fetched Harry’s parents, even though he had listened to Harry’s and McGonagall’s conversation and thus knew exactly what the situation was. Not to mention all the other teachers who she had clearly briefed on the situation before they went in.
Seems like a deliberate provocation.
It seemed to me it was the way Harry told them off. He didn’t exactly act like the day was wrapped up and everything was already said.