Intelligent religious person here. I’ve got several different things to say on the subject.
Firstly, GK Chesterton lived almost a hundred years ago. It’s simply unreasonable to demand that a dead man retroactively conform to every belief confirmed, falsified, or nonindicated by modern science. As it was, he held fairly sophisticated and well-grounded opinions for his time.
Now, on to the subject of religion and intelligence or rationality today. The first issue is to dissolve the word “religion”, and find out what we are really talking about.
Let’s say: spirituality, theology, and practice form an ad-hoc deconstruction of religion. Well then, in what circumstances are these different attributes of religion rational to exercise?
Spirituality: I see no reason that a rational person shouldn’t have spiritual beliefs, in the sense of overarching notions or narrative (summoning Terry Pratchett and his pan narrans view of Man here) regarding the universe, how it works, what forces are at work in it, and our place in it. It is entirely plain to anyone with eyes that powerful, eldritch forces run the universe, and the only way people manage to miss that simple fact is by not noticing that we’re made of those forces. Life and evolution, as processes which self-organize and optimize the world of matter towards lower-entropy states by spending energy (currently: from the sun, by and large), are themselves far larger forces than you would expect in a universe of mathematical laws and subatomic particles. What reveals the “eldritch force” at work is looking at ontology separately from our current matter substrate and noticing that any ontology with a potential for self-replicating things or patterns will become subject to evolution.
Theology: As separate from spirituality, theology is largely about believing the spiritual and material universe has a specific arrangement as dictated by some story, text, or leader. This is usually the least-rational component of religion, and the one that comes under such detestation.
Practice/Observance: Frankly, a series of lifestyle choices like any other, which can have worth like any other. If I get more emotional significance out of separating milk and meat than out of cheeseburgers, then I should do so, including if the reason is that it Ties Me To My Tribe.
Now, as to God in specific, of course scientific evidence has yet to indicate Him, but we also all know here that anything more intelligent than humanity could hide its own existence from humanity should it want to. This actually accords entirely with the theological holding that “God has hidden his face” while His children remain in the Exile (hinting: yes, I’m Jewish).
The proper position to take on theology is, therefore, agnosticism. You cannot strongly support or strongly refute most of it. Just leave it alone: you don’t have to live on theologically-based lifestyle recommendations, but neither should you do something that you would only do if God cannot exist.
GK Chesterton lived almost a hundred years ago. It’s simply unreasonable to demand that a dead man retroactively conform to every belief confirmed, falsified, or nonindicated by modern science
People aren’t objecting to particular scientific opinions held by Chesterton, but to how Chesterton’s standards lead one along bad paths in general. Some things have fences for no reason than bigotry.
you don’t have to live on theologically-based lifestyle recommendations, but neither should you do something that you would only do if God cannot exist.
As far as I can tell, “something that you would only do if God cannot exist” refers to an empty set.
“Something that you would only do if the Christian God cannot exist”, of course, is not an empty set, but that’s very different and it’s very hard to justify why you wouldn’t do that but you’d do the equivalent with some god other than the Christian one.
As far as I can tell, “something that you would only do if God cannot exist” refers to an empty set.
It may be, since I gave a declarative definition rather than a constructive one.
People aren’t objecting to particular scientific opinions held by Chesterton, but to how Chesterton’s standards lead one along bad paths in general. Some things have fences for no reason than bigotry.
I actually gave my own objection to the Fence thing in my own comment, namely that fences are often there simply because some powerful tyrant wanted them, and nobody else wants them.
Intelligent religious person here. I’ve got several different things to say on the subject.
Firstly, GK Chesterton lived almost a hundred years ago. It’s simply unreasonable to demand that a dead man retroactively conform to every belief confirmed, falsified, or nonindicated by modern science. As it was, he held fairly sophisticated and well-grounded opinions for his time.
Now, on to the subject of religion and intelligence or rationality today. The first issue is to dissolve the word “religion”, and find out what we are really talking about.
Let’s say: spirituality, theology, and practice form an ad-hoc deconstruction of religion. Well then, in what circumstances are these different attributes of religion rational to exercise?
Spirituality: I see no reason that a rational person shouldn’t have spiritual beliefs, in the sense of overarching notions or narrative (summoning Terry Pratchett and his pan narrans view of Man here) regarding the universe, how it works, what forces are at work in it, and our place in it. It is entirely plain to anyone with eyes that powerful, eldritch forces run the universe, and the only way people manage to miss that simple fact is by not noticing that we’re made of those forces. Life and evolution, as processes which self-organize and optimize the world of matter towards lower-entropy states by spending energy (currently: from the sun, by and large), are themselves far larger forces than you would expect in a universe of mathematical laws and subatomic particles. What reveals the “eldritch force” at work is looking at ontology separately from our current matter substrate and noticing that any ontology with a potential for self-replicating things or patterns will become subject to evolution.
Theology: As separate from spirituality, theology is largely about believing the spiritual and material universe has a specific arrangement as dictated by some story, text, or leader. This is usually the least-rational component of religion, and the one that comes under such detestation.
Practice/Observance: Frankly, a series of lifestyle choices like any other, which can have worth like any other. If I get more emotional significance out of separating milk and meat than out of cheeseburgers, then I should do so, including if the reason is that it Ties Me To My Tribe.
Now, as to God in specific, of course scientific evidence has yet to indicate Him, but we also all know here that anything more intelligent than humanity could hide its own existence from humanity should it want to. This actually accords entirely with the theological holding that “God has hidden his face” while His children remain in the Exile (hinting: yes, I’m Jewish).
The proper position to take on theology is, therefore, agnosticism. You cannot strongly support or strongly refute most of it. Just leave it alone: you don’t have to live on theologically-based lifestyle recommendations, but neither should you do something that you would only do if God cannot exist.
People aren’t objecting to particular scientific opinions held by Chesterton, but to how Chesterton’s standards lead one along bad paths in general. Some things have fences for no reason than bigotry.
As far as I can tell, “something that you would only do if God cannot exist” refers to an empty set.
“Something that you would only do if the Christian God cannot exist”, of course, is not an empty set, but that’s very different and it’s very hard to justify why you wouldn’t do that but you’d do the equivalent with some god other than the Christian one.
It may be, since I gave a declarative definition rather than a constructive one.
I actually gave my own objection to the Fence thing in my own comment, namely that fences are often there simply because some powerful tyrant wanted them, and nobody else wants them.