I believe many philosophies and ideologies have hangups, obsessions, or parasitical beliefs that are unimportant to most of the beliefs in practice, and to living your life in concordance with the philosophy, yet which are somehow interpreted as central to the philosophy by some adherents, often because they fit elegantly into the theoretical groundings.
Christians have murdered each other over transubstantiation vs consubstantiation. Some strands of Libertarianism obsess over physical property. On this forum huge amounts of digital ink are spilled over Many-Worlds Interpretation. Each fitness community swears by contradictory advice, even about basic nutrition and exercise.
These are sometimes badges of tribalism, sometimes the result of trying to hard to make a “perfect theory”.
Most of the time, most of this stuff just doesn’t matter! To live a Christian life, it could not matter less what you believe about the Eucharist. You could live your life as if the world were classically Newtonian and everything defying that was magic, and unless you were a physicist it would not affect your life as a rationalist. You can become more fit than most people you know on almost any given fitness program, with time and effort and diet.
“Doctrinal” issues are largely a distraction from actually living your life in accordance with principles you think are good or from achieving a goal.
Christians have murdered each other over transubstantiation vs consubstantiation. Some strands of Libertarianism obsess over physical property. On this forum huge amounts of digital ink are spilled over Many-Worlds Interpretation.
One of these is not the like the others. The first one is killing over something that likely doesn’t exist. The others are a bit different from that. The second one is focusing on a coherent ideological issue with policy implications. The third one may have implications for decision theory and related issues. Note by the way that if the medieval Christian’s theology is correct then the the first thing really is worth killing over: the risk of people getting it wrong is eternal hellfire. Similarly, if libertarianism in some sense is correct then figuring out what counts as property may be very important. Similar remarks about to MWI. The key issue here seems to be that you disagree with all these people about fundamental premises.
To live a Christian life, it could not matter less what you believe about the Eucharist.
The people in question would have vehemently and in fact violently disagreed. The only way this makes sense is if one adopts a version of Christianity which doesn’t focus on the Eucharist, again disagreeing with a fundamental premise at issue. None of the groups in question consider “live a Christian life” to mean be a nice person and believe that Jesus was a swell dude.
You could live your life as if the world were classically Newtonian and everything defying that was magic, and unless you were a physicist it would not affect your life as a rationalist
Or if you did quantum computing, or if you were a chemist, or if you were a biologist, or if you care about understanding and figuring out the Great Filter and related issues, or if you work with GPS, or if you care about nuclear safety and engineering, or if you work with radios, etc. And that’s before we look at the more silly problems that can arise from seeing parts of the world as magic, like people using quantum mechanics to justify homeopathy. If quantum mechanics is magic, then this is much easier to fall prey to.
To live a Christian life, it could not matter less what you believe about the Eucharist.
The people in question would have vehemently and in fact violently disagreed. The only way this makes sense is if one adopts a version of Christianity which doesn’t focus on the Eucharist, again disagreeing with a fundamental premise at issue. None of the groups in question consider “live a Christian life” to mean be a nice person and believe that Jesus was a swell dude.
Ask an Orthodox priest about the filioque. Ask a Catholic about the Resurrection. Ask John C. Wright about, well, anything.
Of course, you may not agree with their answers. The point is that their answers will have nothing to do with avoiding hellfire by reciting God’s passwords (a typical misunderstanding by people unfamiliar with Christianity), and everything to do with how a right understanding of God and His relationship to Man leads us to rightly relate to each other in the world.
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
But not all Christians believe that, as demonstrated by the Reformation wars among other things. And while were at it, it is worth noting that among some evangelical Christians, especially those who emphasize the “sinners’ prayer” it is very close to saying the right passwords. That people aren’t focusing on the forms of Christianity that you are sympathetic with doesn’t mean they don’t understand Christianity.
My post is about dogmatism. Sometimes beliefs have implications but they are implications in the long-tail, or in the far-future.
I would wager that most medieval Christians could not follow a medieval Christian theological debate about transubstantiation, and would not alter their behavior at all if they did. And eventually, Christians came to the consensus that this particular piece of dogma was not worth fighting over.
Specifics of property are similarly irrelevant in a world so far from the the imagined world where these specific determine policy. Certainly, it should be an issue you put aside if you want to be an effective activist. I’m not saying nobody should think about these issues ever, just that they are a disproportionately argued-about issue.
Similarly MWI just doesn’t have an impact on any decision I make in my daily life apart from explaining quantum physics to other people, and never will. Can you think of a decision and action it could impact (I really would like to know an example!)? I’m not saying it’s totally irrelevant or uninteresting, it’s just disproportionately touted as a badge of rationalism, and disproportionately argued about.
Or if you did quantum computing, or if you were a chemist, or if you were a biologist, or if you care about understanding and figuring out the Great Filter and related issues, or if you work with GPS, or if you care about nuclear safety and engineering, or if you work with radios, etc. And that’s before we look at the more silly problems that can arise from seeing parts of the world as magic, like people using quantum mechanics to justify homeopathy. If quantum mechanics is magic, then this is much easier to fall prey to.
This argument can be applied to anything. Automotive knowledge, political knowledge, mathematical knowledge, cosmetics knowledge, fashion knowledge, etc. I think it’s great to know things, especially when you actually do need to know them but also when you don’t. But if some piece of knowledge is unimportant to determining your actions or most of them, I won’t privilege it just because it has some cultural or theoretical role in some ideology.
Sometimes beliefs have implications but they are implications in the long-tail, or in the far-future.
A far future belief that effects heavily estimated utility are important. In the case of Christianity, the stakes are nothing less than eternity. So once you agree with the medieval Catholic that that’s really what’s at stake, the behavior makes sense. The primary issue isn’t one of “dogma” but of disagreeing with their fundamental premises.
I would wager that most medieval Christians could not follow a medieval Christian theological debate about transubstantiation, and would not alter their behavior at all if they did.
True. So what?
And eventually, Christians came to the consensus that this particular piece of dogma was not worth fighting over.
No, enough of them came to that conclusion that they stopped having large-scale wars of the same type. But note that that conclusion was essentially due to emotional issues (people being sick of it) and the general decline in religiosity which lead to a focus on other disagreements, especially those focusing on ideology or nationalism, and less belief that the issues genuinely mattered. And if one looks one still sees a minority of extremist Catholics and Protestants who think this was a mistake.
Can you think of a decision and action it could impact (I really would like to know an example!)?
Sure. Some people have argued that cryonics makes more sense in an MWI context. So if one is considering signing up that should matter.
I’m not saying it’s totally irrelevant or uninteresting, it’s just disproportionately touted as a badge of rationalism, and disproportionately argued about
So, I agree that it is disappointingly touted as a badge of rationalism, but that conclusion is for essentially different reasons: I don’t think the case for MWI is particularly strong given that we don’t have any quantum mechanical version of GR. The reason why MWI makes sense as a badge if you think there’s a strong case is because it would demonstrate a severe failing on the part of the physics community, what we normally think of as one of the most rational parts of the scientific community. It also functions as a badge because it shows an ability to accept a counterintuitive result even when that result is not being pushed by some tribal group (although I suspect that much of the belief here in MWI is tribal in the same way that other beliefs end up being tribal affiliation signals for other groups).
This argument can be applied to anything. Automotive knowledge, political knowledge, mathematical knowledge, cosmetics knowledge, fashion knowledge, etc. I think it’s great to know things, especially when you actually do need to know them but also when you don’t.
Sure. All of those are important. Unfortunately, the universe is big and complicated and life is hard, so you need to prioritize. But that doesn’t mean that they are unimportant: it means that there are a lot of important things.
But if some piece of knowledge is unimportant to determining your actions or most of them, I won’t privilege it just because it has some cultural or theoretical role in some ideology.
How much of that is that you don’t identify with the culture, don’t agree with the theory and don’t accept the ideology?
There are more factors involved. I sympathize with Buddhist ethics, but don’t believe in reincarnation, and still haven’t solved the dissonance. Buddhist ethics can function very well without all the other added beliefs, but sections of scripture insist on the importance of believing in reincarnation in order to remember the need for ethics. This is a case where in my everyday life I can successfully ignore the belief I don’t like, but I can’t change the fact that it’s still part of the package.
To be a Catholic and ignore the doctrines concerning the Eucharist is a similar matter only if you don’t mind being excommunicated. To very devoted Catholics, the risk of ignoring beliefs you don’t like is too big.
In these two scenarios, you can’t modify the package: the less palatable parts are still there, like it or not. But there are other scenarios where you can modify it, with varying degrees of chance of success. If you live in Saudi Arabia, and are very happy with the laws there, but want your wife to drive her own car, you’d need to change the minds of a big enough number of authorities before they catch up with you and put you in jail for agitation. Now suppose you live in Texas and are pretty content with most of the laws, but don’t like the death penalty. In that case, the rules of democracy give you some chance of changing the part of the system that you don’t like, without (in theory) any risk to you personally.
Perhaps a better way to say it is that these beliefs are irrelevant to the ideology-as-movement.
That is, if you are a Christian missionary, details of transubstantiation are irrelevant to gathering more believers (or at least, are not going to strike the prospective recruits as more important). Likewise, MWI is not really that important for making the world more rational.
So I was wrong to say they are not in some way important points of doctrine. What I should say is that they are points of doctrine that are unimportant to the movement and most of the externally-oriented goals of an organization dedicated to these ideologies.
Well no, that makes them unimportant up until the point where there are people with similar viewpoints that disagrees with you on that point. In both of the cases in question, that is part of the situation. In the case of transubstantiation for example there were other branches of Catholicism or Christianity that actively argued against it. In the case of MWI, there are people that argue that interpretations don’t matter and I’ve encountered at least a few self-identified skeptics who consider MWI to be “unscientific”. Ideas don’t exist in vacuums; it would be the same mistake as if a Christian missionary assumed that anyone they are talking to has no prior exposure to Christianity at all.
Christians have murdered each other over transubstantiation vs consubstantiation.
Even before that, the debates on the nature of Christ were ground for successive mutual excommunications. Reading the arguments exchanged during that period is a continuous source of facepalms.
I believe many philosophies and ideologies have hangups, obsessions, or parasitical beliefs that are unimportant to most of the beliefs in practice, and to living your life in concordance with the philosophy, yet which are somehow interpreted as central to the philosophy by some adherents, often because they fit elegantly into the theoretical groundings.
Christians have murdered each other over transubstantiation vs consubstantiation. Some strands of Libertarianism obsess over physical property. On this forum huge amounts of digital ink are spilled over Many-Worlds Interpretation. Each fitness community swears by contradictory advice, even about basic nutrition and exercise.
These are sometimes badges of tribalism, sometimes the result of trying to hard to make a “perfect theory”.
Most of the time, most of this stuff just doesn’t matter! To live a Christian life, it could not matter less what you believe about the Eucharist. You could live your life as if the world were classically Newtonian and everything defying that was magic, and unless you were a physicist it would not affect your life as a rationalist. You can become more fit than most people you know on almost any given fitness program, with time and effort and diet.
“Doctrinal” issues are largely a distraction from actually living your life in accordance with principles you think are good or from achieving a goal.
One of these is not the like the others. The first one is killing over something that likely doesn’t exist. The others are a bit different from that. The second one is focusing on a coherent ideological issue with policy implications. The third one may have implications for decision theory and related issues. Note by the way that if the medieval Christian’s theology is correct then the the first thing really is worth killing over: the risk of people getting it wrong is eternal hellfire. Similarly, if libertarianism in some sense is correct then figuring out what counts as property may be very important. Similar remarks about to MWI. The key issue here seems to be that you disagree with all these people about fundamental premises.
The people in question would have vehemently and in fact violently disagreed. The only way this makes sense is if one adopts a version of Christianity which doesn’t focus on the Eucharist, again disagreeing with a fundamental premise at issue. None of the groups in question consider “live a Christian life” to mean be a nice person and believe that Jesus was a swell dude.
Or if you did quantum computing, or if you were a chemist, or if you were a biologist, or if you care about understanding and figuring out the Great Filter and related issues, or if you work with GPS, or if you care about nuclear safety and engineering, or if you work with radios, etc. And that’s before we look at the more silly problems that can arise from seeing parts of the world as magic, like people using quantum mechanics to justify homeopathy. If quantum mechanics is magic, then this is much easier to fall prey to.
The answers to questions matter.
Ask an Orthodox priest about the filioque. Ask a Catholic about the Resurrection. Ask John C. Wright about, well, anything.
Of course, you may not agree with their answers. The point is that their answers will have nothing to do with avoiding hellfire by reciting God’s passwords (a typical misunderstanding by people unfamiliar with Christianity), and everything to do with how a right understanding of God and His relationship to Man leads us to rightly relate to each other in the world.
St. Paul, 1 Corinthians 13:1-2
Aquinas
But not all Christians believe that, as demonstrated by the Reformation wars among other things. And while were at it, it is worth noting that among some evangelical Christians, especially those who emphasize the “sinners’ prayer” it is very close to saying the right passwords. That people aren’t focusing on the forms of Christianity that you are sympathetic with doesn’t mean they don’t understand Christianity.
My post is about dogmatism. Sometimes beliefs have implications but they are implications in the long-tail, or in the far-future.
I would wager that most medieval Christians could not follow a medieval Christian theological debate about transubstantiation, and would not alter their behavior at all if they did. And eventually, Christians came to the consensus that this particular piece of dogma was not worth fighting over.
Specifics of property are similarly irrelevant in a world so far from the the imagined world where these specific determine policy. Certainly, it should be an issue you put aside if you want to be an effective activist. I’m not saying nobody should think about these issues ever, just that they are a disproportionately argued-about issue.
Similarly MWI just doesn’t have an impact on any decision I make in my daily life apart from explaining quantum physics to other people, and never will. Can you think of a decision and action it could impact (I really would like to know an example!)? I’m not saying it’s totally irrelevant or uninteresting, it’s just disproportionately touted as a badge of rationalism, and disproportionately argued about.
This argument can be applied to anything. Automotive knowledge, political knowledge, mathematical knowledge, cosmetics knowledge, fashion knowledge, etc. I think it’s great to know things, especially when you actually do need to know them but also when you don’t. But if some piece of knowledge is unimportant to determining your actions or most of them, I won’t privilege it just because it has some cultural or theoretical role in some ideology.
A far future belief that effects heavily estimated utility are important. In the case of Christianity, the stakes are nothing less than eternity. So once you agree with the medieval Catholic that that’s really what’s at stake, the behavior makes sense. The primary issue isn’t one of “dogma” but of disagreeing with their fundamental premises.
True. So what?
No, enough of them came to that conclusion that they stopped having large-scale wars of the same type. But note that that conclusion was essentially due to emotional issues (people being sick of it) and the general decline in religiosity which lead to a focus on other disagreements, especially those focusing on ideology or nationalism, and less belief that the issues genuinely mattered. And if one looks one still sees a minority of extremist Catholics and Protestants who think this was a mistake.
Sure. Some people have argued that cryonics makes more sense in an MWI context. So if one is considering signing up that should matter.
So, I agree that it is disappointingly touted as a badge of rationalism, but that conclusion is for essentially different reasons: I don’t think the case for MWI is particularly strong given that we don’t have any quantum mechanical version of GR. The reason why MWI makes sense as a badge if you think there’s a strong case is because it would demonstrate a severe failing on the part of the physics community, what we normally think of as one of the most rational parts of the scientific community. It also functions as a badge because it shows an ability to accept a counterintuitive result even when that result is not being pushed by some tribal group (although I suspect that much of the belief here in MWI is tribal in the same way that other beliefs end up being tribal affiliation signals for other groups).
Sure. All of those are important. Unfortunately, the universe is big and complicated and life is hard, so you need to prioritize. But that doesn’t mean that they are unimportant: it means that there are a lot of important things.
How much of that is that you don’t identify with the culture, don’t agree with the theory and don’t accept the ideology?
There are more factors involved. I sympathize with Buddhist ethics, but don’t believe in reincarnation, and still haven’t solved the dissonance. Buddhist ethics can function very well without all the other added beliefs, but sections of scripture insist on the importance of believing in reincarnation in order to remember the need for ethics. This is a case where in my everyday life I can successfully ignore the belief I don’t like, but I can’t change the fact that it’s still part of the package.
To be a Catholic and ignore the doctrines concerning the Eucharist is a similar matter only if you don’t mind being excommunicated. To very devoted Catholics, the risk of ignoring beliefs you don’t like is too big.
In these two scenarios, you can’t modify the package: the less palatable parts are still there, like it or not. But there are other scenarios where you can modify it, with varying degrees of chance of success. If you live in Saudi Arabia, and are very happy with the laws there, but want your wife to drive her own car, you’d need to change the minds of a big enough number of authorities before they catch up with you and put you in jail for agitation. Now suppose you live in Texas and are pretty content with most of the laws, but don’t like the death penalty. In that case, the rules of democracy give you some chance of changing the part of the system that you don’t like, without (in theory) any risk to you personally.
Perhaps a better way to say it is that these beliefs are irrelevant to the ideology-as-movement.
That is, if you are a Christian missionary, details of transubstantiation are irrelevant to gathering more believers (or at least, are not going to strike the prospective recruits as more important). Likewise, MWI is not really that important for making the world more rational.
So I was wrong to say they are not in some way important points of doctrine. What I should say is that they are points of doctrine that are unimportant to the movement and most of the externally-oriented goals of an organization dedicated to these ideologies.
Well no, that makes them unimportant up until the point where there are people with similar viewpoints that disagrees with you on that point. In both of the cases in question, that is part of the situation. In the case of transubstantiation for example there were other branches of Catholicism or Christianity that actively argued against it. In the case of MWI, there are people that argue that interpretations don’t matter and I’ve encountered at least a few self-identified skeptics who consider MWI to be “unscientific”. Ideas don’t exist in vacuums; it would be the same mistake as if a Christian missionary assumed that anyone they are talking to has no prior exposure to Christianity at all.
Even before that, the debates on the nature of Christ were ground for successive mutual excommunications. Reading the arguments exchanged during that period is a continuous source of facepalms.