You can’t hear it, so it’s a more complex thing to suppose it’s still there. All the aspects of consciousness can be changed by affecting the brain, so to say that if we turn the brain ‘off’, that consciousness is still functioning just fine, is a hypothesis you have no evidence for.
You can’t hear it, so it’s a more complex thing to suppose it’s still there.
If it is indeed a more complex thing, then I think that means you’re right: the chances of it happening are small (inversely related to the complexity).
But how do we know that it’s actually a complex thing? The correlates of consciousness on the neuronal level are complex, but what if underneath it all on some smaller physical level there’s a simple cause of consciousness? How do we know that “consciousness is complex” is more likely than this theory?
By the way, sorry I took so long to make this point. This is the real point I’ve been trying to make, but I haven’t really been able to articulate it well until talking it over with you guys.
My original point: the hypothesis that, when all our evidence says that the causes of consciousness have ceased operating, consciousness is still existing, is a much more complex hypothesis than saying it stops existing when all the evidence suggests so, and so you shouldn’t expect it to still exist.
Your new point: Just because all the evidence we have says consciousness is a highly complex feature of the world that requires brains functioning in certain ways, doesn’t mean that it is, therefore I’m fifty fifty on whether or not it continues when the brain dies (apologies if that seems a little uncharitable).
My recommendation: Maybe watch some Daniel Dennett talks on consciousness, and read some science of how the brain works (I hear Pinker’s “How the Mind Works” is good). At the very least, I think that there’s so much evidence showing how each aspect of our conscious experience can be affected by affecting the brain, that to suggest consciousness isn’t almost entirely dependant on brain function is no longer reasonable. And even then, if you want to suggest that, once the brain stops functioning and you have no memories, no reaction to stimuli, no thought processes (because all of your modules that run these functions have stopped working) that then some essence of experience still exists… That experience is more than the sum of these brain parts, and will continue to exist, seems like a confusion. It really can just be the sum of its parts, a bag of trick, because that’s what the evidence indicates.
After thinking about it some more, I think my point comes down to this: when we say that “messing with the brain messes with consciousness”, how do we really know that? How can we infer that someone else is conscious?
We infer from behavior that someone is conscious, but can we infer that from the absence of behavior that there is an absence of consciousness? That’s like saying A ⇒ B, therefore ~A ⇒ ~B.
And if we can’t infer whether or not someone is unconscious, we have no data on what does or doesn’t lead to unconsciousness.
when we say that “messing with the brain messes with consciousness”, how do we really know that?
Everything about someone’s personality and mental functioning can be affected by affecting the brain. Take an example; people with a certain type of brain damage can stop recognising faces. Their qualia have been fundamentally messed up. They can see the world just fine, but if their mother comes to talk to them, until she says ‘hello’ and they recognises her voice, they don’t know who she is.
There are so many cases like that.
Now do you really think that it’s fifty fifty on whether their consciousness has been affected by the brain damage? I mean, what’s the alternative? That they’re recognising their mother and choosing not to act on it? That their consciousness has disassociated with action, and inside their head they’re thinking ‘Help me! Help me!’ whilst their body says “I’m sorry, I don’t recognise you”?
All the components of your mind are created by the different modules in your brain. When you affect the brain, it totally messes up your mind. When the brain stops, the totally best guess is that consciousness stops too.
Using the music example, you don’t know if you stopped the cause of “music playing in such a way that can’t be heard”.
For the record, I’m confused about this whole thing, especially the 50⁄50 part. I’m just saying what my best understanding tells me.
You can’t hear it, so it’s a more complex thing to suppose it’s still there. All the aspects of consciousness can be changed by affecting the brain, so to say that if we turn the brain ‘off’, that consciousness is still functioning just fine, is a hypothesis you have no evidence for.
If it is indeed a more complex thing, then I think that means you’re right: the chances of it happening are small (inversely related to the complexity).
But how do we know that it’s actually a complex thing? The correlates of consciousness on the neuronal level are complex, but what if underneath it all on some smaller physical level there’s a simple cause of consciousness? How do we know that “consciousness is complex” is more likely than this theory?
By the way, sorry I took so long to make this point. This is the real point I’ve been trying to make, but I haven’t really been able to articulate it well until talking it over with you guys.
My original point: the hypothesis that, when all our evidence says that the causes of consciousness have ceased operating, consciousness is still existing, is a much more complex hypothesis than saying it stops existing when all the evidence suggests so, and so you shouldn’t expect it to still exist.
Your new point: Just because all the evidence we have says consciousness is a highly complex feature of the world that requires brains functioning in certain ways, doesn’t mean that it is, therefore I’m fifty fifty on whether or not it continues when the brain dies (apologies if that seems a little uncharitable).
My recommendation: Maybe watch some Daniel Dennett talks on consciousness, and read some science of how the brain works (I hear Pinker’s “How the Mind Works” is good). At the very least, I think that there’s so much evidence showing how each aspect of our conscious experience can be affected by affecting the brain, that to suggest consciousness isn’t almost entirely dependant on brain function is no longer reasonable. And even then, if you want to suggest that, once the brain stops functioning and you have no memories, no reaction to stimuli, no thought processes (because all of your modules that run these functions have stopped working) that then some essence of experience still exists… That experience is more than the sum of these brain parts, and will continue to exist, seems like a confusion. It really can just be the sum of its parts, a bag of trick, because that’s what the evidence indicates.
After thinking about it some more, I think my point comes down to this: when we say that “messing with the brain messes with consciousness”, how do we really know that? How can we infer that someone else is conscious?
We infer from behavior that someone is conscious, but can we infer that from the absence of behavior that there is an absence of consciousness? That’s like saying A ⇒ B, therefore ~A ⇒ ~B.
And if we can’t infer whether or not someone is unconscious, we have no data on what does or doesn’t lead to unconsciousness.
Everything about someone’s personality and mental functioning can be affected by affecting the brain. Take an example; people with a certain type of brain damage can stop recognising faces. Their qualia have been fundamentally messed up. They can see the world just fine, but if their mother comes to talk to them, until she says ‘hello’ and they recognises her voice, they don’t know who she is.
There are so many cases like that.
Now do you really think that it’s fifty fifty on whether their consciousness has been affected by the brain damage? I mean, what’s the alternative? That they’re recognising their mother and choosing not to act on it? That their consciousness has disassociated with action, and inside their head they’re thinking ‘Help me! Help me!’ whilst their body says “I’m sorry, I don’t recognise you”?
All the components of your mind are created by the different modules in your brain. When you affect the brain, it totally messes up your mind. When the brain stops, the totally best guess is that consciousness stops too.