I want there to be other people in the future, but this is purely for idealistic and altruistic reasons, not because of any form of self-interest.
I think that on the reductionist understanding of personal identity, that distinction breaks down. Consider a fairly typical “altruistic” act: I see a person heavily loaded with packages and I hold the doors open for them. Why? Well, I can see that it would suck badly to have to deal with the doors and packages simultaneously, and that it would suck a lot less to deal with the doors and packages separately. Now consider a fairly typical “selfish” act, where I plan to bring some packages into my building, so I prop the doors open beforehand. Why? Because I can see that it would suck badly to have to deal with the doors and packages simultaneously … There isn’t a lot of attention to the underlying facts of same memories, personality, etc. - the reduction-base for personal identity according to reductionism—in either case. Instead, the focus is on the quality of experiences and activities of the person(s) involved.
If you’re a non-reductionist who believes in a fundamental metaphysical ghost-in-the-machine, you could assert that there’s some extra step of indirection in the altruistic case: that person’s experience would be similar to mine—which distinguishes it from the selfish motivation. But that’s not the case for the reductionist, or more precisely, the indirection applies in both cases because neither future experience is fundamentally linked to my-experience-now.
Note that there can be differences in the average intensity or frequency of response to one’s own plight, versus that of others, without there being any difference in kind in those cases in which “altruistic” motivations do occur. Similarly, there can be, and typically are, differences in the intensity and frequency of response to one’s own near future versus one’s farther future.
I think that on the reductionist understanding of personal identity, that distinction breaks down. Consider a fairly typical “altruistic” act: I see a person heavily loaded with packages and I hold the doors open for them … There isn’t a lot of attention to the underlying facts of same memories, personality, etc. - the reduction-base for personal identity according to reductionism—in either case. Instead, the focus is on the quality of experiences and activities of the person(s) involved.
A person who has a non-reductionist understanding of personal identity who believes in acting in an impartial fashion towards others would behave in exactly the same way. I don’t see how reductionism adds anything.
The argument that we ought to behave in an impartial fashion towards other people because personal identity isn’t a coherent concept reminds me of the argument that we ought to not be racist because race isn’t a coherent concept. I thought that racism was wrong long before I ever considered whether race was a coherent concept or not, and I thought partiality was wrong before I thought about the coherency of personal identity. I don’t see either argument as giving me any additional reason to oppose those things.
But that’s not the case for the reductionist, or more precisely, the indirection applies in both cases because neither future experience is fundamentally linked to my-experience-now.
It’s not fundamentally linked in some sort of ghost-in-a-machine sense. But “my” future experience is linked in ways that “their” future experience is not. To put it in reductionist lingo, the unit that is processing the current experiences expects to evolve into the unit that will process those future experiences, while retaining many of its original properties.
Another way of putting it is that I think of myself as a four-dimensional object, which has boundaries in both space and time. It’s true that these boundaries are fuzzy. They are not sharp, well-defined, or ontologically fundamental. But they are there nonetheless. And saying that FutureMe is the same person as PresentMe but FutureObama is not makes just as much since as saying that PresentMe is me, but PresentRubberDuckyOnMyDesk is not. The rubber ducky on my desk is a different three dimensional object than me, and Barack Obama is a different four dimensional object than me.
Note that there can be differences in the average intensity or frequency of response to one’s own plight, versus that of others
If you truly reject the concept of personal identity it’s not really possible to respond to anything. The very act of thinking about how to respond “kills” thousands of yous and creates new yous before the thought is even complete. I think that the 4D object concept makes much more sense.
Now, you might wonder why I make such a big deal about this, if I believe that ethics prescribes the exact same behavior regardless of the coherency of personal identity. It’s because, as I said in my previous post, in population ethics I believe personal identity is the most important thing there is. For instance, I believe that a world where a person lives a good long life is better by far than one where a person dies and is replaced by a new person who experiences the same amount of wellbeing as the dead person would have if they’d lived. The fact that both scenarios contain the same total amount of wellbeing is not relevant.
I thought partiality was wrong before I thought about the coherency of personal identity. I don’t see either argument as giving me any additional reason to oppose those things.
That’s not my argument—rather, I simply point out the highly limited usefulness of dividing the space of concerns into “altruistic” versus “self-interested” categories. These are not two different kinds of concerns (at least to a clear-headed reductionist), they are just two different locations, or directions of concern. Without locating the concern in a history and causal trajectory, and just looking at the felt quality of concern, it’s not possible to categorize it as “self” or “other”.
You said earlier:
I want there to be other people in the future, but this is purely for idealistic and altruistic reasons, not because of any form of self-interest.
That alleged contrast is what I find wanting.
I don’t have any objection to taking a 4D view of objects, including people. Whatever works for the task at hand. I also don’t reject the concept of personal identity; I just put it in its place.
For instance, I believe that a world where a person lives a good long life is better by far than one where a person dies and is replaced by a new person who experiences the same amount of wellbeing as the dead person would have if they’d lived.
A lot of what is valuable in life requires a long time-horizon of highly integrated memory, intention, and action. Normally (but not by any necessity) those long spans of highly coherent activity occur within a single person. There is more to life than moment-to-moment well-being. So I would agree that your first scenario is better—in almost all cases.
I think that on the reductionist understanding of personal identity, that distinction breaks down. Consider a fairly typical “altruistic” act: I see a person heavily loaded with packages and I hold the doors open for them. Why? Well, I can see that it would suck badly to have to deal with the doors and packages simultaneously, and that it would suck a lot less to deal with the doors and packages separately. Now consider a fairly typical “selfish” act, where I plan to bring some packages into my building, so I prop the doors open beforehand. Why? Because I can see that it would suck badly to have to deal with the doors and packages simultaneously … There isn’t a lot of attention to the underlying facts of same memories, personality, etc. - the reduction-base for personal identity according to reductionism—in either case. Instead, the focus is on the quality of experiences and activities of the person(s) involved.
If you’re a non-reductionist who believes in a fundamental metaphysical ghost-in-the-machine, you could assert that there’s some extra step of indirection in the altruistic case: that person’s experience would be similar to mine—which distinguishes it from the selfish motivation. But that’s not the case for the reductionist, or more precisely, the indirection applies in both cases because neither future experience is fundamentally linked to my-experience-now.
Note that there can be differences in the average intensity or frequency of response to one’s own plight, versus that of others, without there being any difference in kind in those cases in which “altruistic” motivations do occur. Similarly, there can be, and typically are, differences in the intensity and frequency of response to one’s own near future versus one’s farther future.
A person who has a non-reductionist understanding of personal identity who believes in acting in an impartial fashion towards others would behave in exactly the same way. I don’t see how reductionism adds anything.
The argument that we ought to behave in an impartial fashion towards other people because personal identity isn’t a coherent concept reminds me of the argument that we ought to not be racist because race isn’t a coherent concept. I thought that racism was wrong long before I ever considered whether race was a coherent concept or not, and I thought partiality was wrong before I thought about the coherency of personal identity. I don’t see either argument as giving me any additional reason to oppose those things.
It’s not fundamentally linked in some sort of ghost-in-a-machine sense. But “my” future experience is linked in ways that “their” future experience is not. To put it in reductionist lingo, the unit that is processing the current experiences expects to evolve into the unit that will process those future experiences, while retaining many of its original properties.
Another way of putting it is that I think of myself as a four-dimensional object, which has boundaries in both space and time. It’s true that these boundaries are fuzzy. They are not sharp, well-defined, or ontologically fundamental. But they are there nonetheless. And saying that FutureMe is the same person as PresentMe but FutureObama is not makes just as much since as saying that PresentMe is me, but PresentRubberDuckyOnMyDesk is not. The rubber ducky on my desk is a different three dimensional object than me, and Barack Obama is a different four dimensional object than me.
If you truly reject the concept of personal identity it’s not really possible to respond to anything. The very act of thinking about how to respond “kills” thousands of yous and creates new yous before the thought is even complete. I think that the 4D object concept makes much more sense.
Now, you might wonder why I make such a big deal about this, if I believe that ethics prescribes the exact same behavior regardless of the coherency of personal identity. It’s because, as I said in my previous post, in population ethics I believe personal identity is the most important thing there is. For instance, I believe that a world where a person lives a good long life is better by far than one where a person dies and is replaced by a new person who experiences the same amount of wellbeing as the dead person would have if they’d lived. The fact that both scenarios contain the same total amount of wellbeing is not relevant.
That’s not my argument—rather, I simply point out the highly limited usefulness of dividing the space of concerns into “altruistic” versus “self-interested” categories. These are not two different kinds of concerns (at least to a clear-headed reductionist), they are just two different locations, or directions of concern. Without locating the concern in a history and causal trajectory, and just looking at the felt quality of concern, it’s not possible to categorize it as “self” or “other”.
You said earlier:
That alleged contrast is what I find wanting.
I don’t have any objection to taking a 4D view of objects, including people. Whatever works for the task at hand. I also don’t reject the concept of personal identity; I just put it in its place.
A lot of what is valuable in life requires a long time-horizon of highly integrated memory, intention, and action. Normally (but not by any necessity) those long spans of highly coherent activity occur within a single person. There is more to life than moment-to-moment well-being. So I would agree that your first scenario is better—in almost all cases.