“Free will” is an ambiguous term. The sort of free will you’ve argued for here could be paraphrased as “not being God’s puppets”, but I hope it’s obvious that that can’t be evidence of God’s existence. But you listed “free will” as something you can explain with God better than without!
I really don’t think the fact that people sometimes do things a god should be expected to disapprove of can be evidence for that god’s existence. Do you?
(Perhaps the argument you have in mind makes essential use of the fact that humans engage in a kind of cruelty “that is absence from the laws of nature”. But I don’t see how that can work. We should expect human behaviour, even if entirely derived from the laws of nature, to have features that aren’t apparent when looking at the laws themselves—just as, e.g., in Conway’s “Game of Life” there are phenomena like gliders that aren’t apparent from the almost-trivial rules of the game.)
“Free will” is an ambiguous term. The sort of free will you’ve argued for here could be paraphrased as “not being God’s puppets”, but I hope it’s obvious that that can’t be evidence of God’s existence. But you listed “free will” as something you can explain with God better than without!
Ah, let me elaborate, then.
Whether God exists or not, one can postulate a universe in which people are puppets—philosophical zombies, moving and acting according to some purely deterministic set of rules.
In the atheistic universe, those behaviours may be at odds with one another, because the rules are not guided; they do not have an aim. They may optimise for some goal on the individual, or even the group level, but there is no reason why they should do so in an efficient manner; a puppet universe may include humans who oppose each other.
In the theistic universe, the presence of an omnipotent, omniscient being suggests that there is some purpose to the universe. If all people are puppets, then, it is to be expected that all people work tirelessly towards a single goal, without opposing each other.
Therefore, the observation that people oppose each other cannot be used to argue for free will in the atheistic universe, but can do so in the theistic universe.
I really don’t think the fact that people sometimes do things a god should be expected to disapprove of can be evidence for that god’s existence. Do you?
You’ve got it backwards. I’m not using it as evidence for God’s existence; I’m using it as evidence for free will, given the existence of God as a postulate.
In the atheistic universe, those behaviours may be at odds with one another, because the rules are not guided; they do not have an aim. They may optimise for some goal on the individual, or even the group level, but there is no reason why they should do so in an efficient manner; a puppet universe may include humans who oppose each other.
You are treating puppet and zombie as equivalents, but they are not. Rational deterministic agents may or may not succeed in co operating. Co-operation is probably the outcome that ideal rational agents would tend to , but non ideal agents face barriers to co operation. Puppets in a theistic universe may or may not co-operate depending on what the Puppetteer wants: some Purposes are served by struggle. Maybe the Puppetteer is a Nietzchian , who wants conflict and struggle to develop strength.
In the theistic universe, the presence of an omnipotent, omniscient being suggests that there is some purpose to the universe. If all people are puppets, then, it is to be expected that all people work tirelessly towards a single goal, without opposing each other.
Puppets may or may not oppose each other, zombies may or may not oppose each other, free agents may or may not oppose each other. There’s nothing you can deduce.
In that case, it sounds like the “zombie” is the atheistic no-free-will scenario, while the “puppet” is the theistic no-free-will scenario?
In that case, my argument is that the fact that people oppose each other quite strongly at times seems to suggest that we are not puppets but neither confirms nor denies the zombie hypothesis.
I don’t see that. We make our own puppets fight, eg in video games.
...you make an excellent point. In fact, I think you’ve pretty much invalidated my entire (presented) argument for free will given the existence of God.
I have an alternative argument in favour of free will (given the existence of God) if you’d like to have a look over it—it requires not just God, but a (at least vaguely) benevolent God, which is why I didn’t present it earlier (it requires more assumptions therefore it is a weaker argument).
In short, the alternative argument runs as follows; start with the assumption of a benevolent God (and noting the lack of malevolence in the laws of physics as at least weak evidence for the benevolence of a deity). Note that humans, unlike the laws of physics, are capable of being malevolent towards each other; extremely malevolent, in some cases. If they were puppets of a generally benevolent God, then that malevolence is out of place; and this is therefore evidence in favour of free will. (This also implies that God considers free will more important than preventing malevolence).
The question that was asked was “What can you predict with the existence of your God that you can’t predict without?” I parsed this as “What can be shown, taking the existence of God as a postulate, that cannot be shown without that postulate?”
And one of the things that can be shown to be at least more likely with that postulate than not, is free will. Thus, I included it in the response to the question.
...I’m now beginning to wonder if I entirely missed the point of that question.
I’m now beginning to wonder if I entirely missed the point of that question.
I think you did (but maybe I was the one who did); I took it to be presupposing that your belief in God is (or should be) the result of thinking that God explains some things about the world better than absence-of-God would, and asking what such things you had in mind. But maybe raydora was asking a question more like “what use is your belief?” than “what basis has your belief?”. raydora, if you’re reading this, which (if either) did you have in mind?
Anyway: my apologies for failing to consider the possibility that you were interpreting the question so differently from me and consequently misunderstanding the point of your answers!
Anyway: my apologies for failing to consider the possibility that you were interpreting the question so differently from me and consequently misunderstanding the point of your answers!
No worries, it’s all straightened out now.
Incidentally, TheAncientGeek found a severe problem in my argument for free will elsewhere.
“Free will” is an ambiguous term. The sort of free will you’ve argued for here could be paraphrased as “not being God’s puppets”, but I hope it’s obvious that that can’t be evidence of God’s existence. But you listed “free will” as something you can explain with God better than without!
I really don’t think the fact that people sometimes do things a god should be expected to disapprove of can be evidence for that god’s existence. Do you?
(Perhaps the argument you have in mind makes essential use of the fact that humans engage in a kind of cruelty “that is absence from the laws of nature”. But I don’t see how that can work. We should expect human behaviour, even if entirely derived from the laws of nature, to have features that aren’t apparent when looking at the laws themselves—just as, e.g., in Conway’s “Game of Life” there are phenomena like gliders that aren’t apparent from the almost-trivial rules of the game.)
Ah, let me elaborate, then.
Whether God exists or not, one can postulate a universe in which people are puppets—philosophical zombies, moving and acting according to some purely deterministic set of rules.
In the atheistic universe, those behaviours may be at odds with one another, because the rules are not guided; they do not have an aim. They may optimise for some goal on the individual, or even the group level, but there is no reason why they should do so in an efficient manner; a puppet universe may include humans who oppose each other.
In the theistic universe, the presence of an omnipotent, omniscient being suggests that there is some purpose to the universe. If all people are puppets, then, it is to be expected that all people work tirelessly towards a single goal, without opposing each other.
Therefore, the observation that people oppose each other cannot be used to argue for free will in the atheistic universe, but can do so in the theistic universe.
You’ve got it backwards. I’m not using it as evidence for God’s existence; I’m using it as evidence for free will, given the existence of God as a postulate.
You are treating puppet and zombie as equivalents, but they are not. Rational deterministic agents may or may not succeed in co operating. Co-operation is probably the outcome that ideal rational agents would tend to , but non ideal agents face barriers to co operation. Puppets in a theistic universe may or may not co-operate depending on what the Puppetteer wants: some Purposes are served by struggle. Maybe the Puppetteer is a Nietzchian , who wants conflict and struggle to develop strength.
Puppets may or may not oppose each other, zombies may or may not oppose each other, free agents may or may not oppose each other. There’s nothing you can deduce.
You are right that I am treating them as equivalent. How are they different?
Zombie=driven determinstitcally by their own inner workings, inherently predictable.
Puppet=controlled by an external force, not necessarily predictable, since the Puppeteer could be controlling them whimsically.
In that case, it sounds like the “zombie” is the atheistic no-free-will scenario, while the “puppet” is the theistic no-free-will scenario?
In that case, my argument is that the fact that people oppose each other quite strongly at times seems to suggest that we are not puppets but neither confirms nor denies the zombie hypothesis.
Yep.
I don’t see that. We make our own puppets fight, eg in video games.
...you make an excellent point. In fact, I think you’ve pretty much invalidated my entire (presented) argument for free will given the existence of God.
I have an alternative argument in favour of free will (given the existence of God) if you’d like to have a look over it—it requires not just God, but a (at least vaguely) benevolent God, which is why I didn’t present it earlier (it requires more assumptions therefore it is a weaker argument).
In short, the alternative argument runs as follows; start with the assumption of a benevolent God (and noting the lack of malevolence in the laws of physics as at least weak evidence for the benevolence of a deity). Note that humans, unlike the laws of physics, are capable of being malevolent towards each other; extremely malevolent, in some cases. If they were puppets of a generally benevolent God, then that malevolence is out of place; and this is therefore evidence in favour of free will. (This also implies that God considers free will more important than preventing malevolence).
You were earlier when the topic first came up in this thread.
Er… no, I wasn’t.
The question that was asked was “What can you predict with the existence of your God that you can’t predict without?” I parsed this as “What can be shown, taking the existence of God as a postulate, that cannot be shown without that postulate?”
And one of the things that can be shown to be at least more likely with that postulate than not, is free will. Thus, I included it in the response to the question.
...I’m now beginning to wonder if I entirely missed the point of that question.
I think you did (but maybe I was the one who did); I took it to be presupposing that your belief in God is (or should be) the result of thinking that God explains some things about the world better than absence-of-God would, and asking what such things you had in mind. But maybe raydora was asking a question more like “what use is your belief?” than “what basis has your belief?”. raydora, if you’re reading this, which (if either) did you have in mind?
Anyway: my apologies for failing to consider the possibility that you were interpreting the question so differently from me and consequently misunderstanding the point of your answers!
No worries, it’s all straightened out now.
Incidentally, TheAncientGeek found a severe problem in my argument for free will elsewhere.