That’s like saying that there’s a spectrum from “planet teeming with life” to “lifeless planet” and then sticking “planet does not exist” onto the lifeless planet end of the spectrum.
You can talk about a spectrum between “planet large enough for life to exist”, “planet which is a little smaller which makes it a little harder for life to exist” all the way down to “no planet with no life”. You can do that because in this spectrum, the extent to which the planet exists and the chance of life are connected. In the God example, the spectrum is “degree to which things can be explained without God”. If you have evolution, there is one less thing that you need God to explain, and you get one step closer to not needing God to explain anything. And with nothing to need God for you can then reject the existence of God.
You could do a planet-size-spectrum like that; but reversing the analogy would be—I don’t know, some sort of spectrum ranging from “God doesn’t exist” to “God exists”? That seems a pretty binary set of points to me—how can the state of “God 50% exists” make any sort of sense?
And with nothing to need God for you can then reject the existence of God.
Similarly, if nothing that you ever see requires the existence of Jim, then you can reject the existence of Jim, right?
how can the state of “God 50% exists” make any sort of sense?
Suppose it turns out that the skeptics are mostly right about Christianity, but that there really was an itinerant preacher called Yeshua in Galilee about 2000 years ago who talked about forgiveness and love and had a reputation for casting out demons and the like; but he didn’t really work any miracles, he didn’t get crucified, and he certainly didn’t rise from the dead.
Then: Did Jesus exist? Well, kinda. Someone existed who’s fairly clearly the person the gospels are about. No one existed about whom they’re actually accurate accounts. Many of the most important things about “Jesus” don’t apply to anyone. While it might feel a bit weird to say something like “Jesus 50% existed” in that case, I think it would give a reasonable idea of the situation.
I wouldn’t want to defend the “50% existed” claim too seriously, but note that the discussion here was never really about explicit claims of that kind. It was about whether it’s appropriate to consider, e.g., “there is a god who gets involved in biological evolution” intermediate between “there is no god” and “there is a god who created every kind of living thing ex nihilo”. I say yes; CCC says no. The affirmative answer doesn’t require, e.g., being willing to say that a god who never does anything “50% exists”; only regarding a less-active god as in some sense intermediate between a more-active god and no god.
You can definitely plot all three points on the same graph—you can even plot them such that the distance from “there is no god” to “there is a god who created every kind of living thing ex nihilo” is greater than the distance from “there is a god who gets involved in biological evolution” to either of the two aforementioned points. That can all be done perfectly sensibly.
My claim is simply that the three points can’t be colinear on that graph.
It seems to me that you can plot them wherever you want to, so this is really a question of aesthetics more than anything else. Or is there some actual consequence that follows from one or another answer to this question?
Yes, very familiar with complex numbers, thanks. But, I repeat, you can plot what you want however you want; the question is whether it’s helpful, and that will depend on the application. (Suppose the values taken by your dependent variable are all on the circle of radius 1/sqrt(2) centred at (1+i)/2. Then plotting 0, 1, and i collinearly may make a whole lot of sense, though you might actually want to call them −3pi/4, -pi/4 and pi/4 respectively.)
(Suppose the values taken by your dependent variable are all on the circle of radius 1/sqrt(2) centred at (1+i)/2. Then plotting 0, 1, and i collinearly may make a whole lot of sense, though you might actually want to call them −3pi/4, -pi/4 and pi/4 respectively.)
I reluctantly concede the point, but firmly maintain that calling them −3pi/4, -pi/4 and pi/4 respectively would make a lot more sense.
...I wouldn’t describe that as “God 50% exists”. I’d describe that as “someone with strong similarity to the biblical Jesus existed”.
To take an analogy, again, let us consider Dr. Joseph Bell. Dr. Bell was a medical school lecturer who emphasised the importance of close observation in making a diagnosis, and made a game of observing a stranger and deducing his occupation and recent activities. He was also the inspiration for the fictional character of Sherlock Holmes (who was famous for doing the same).
Does this imply that Sherlock Holmes 50% existed? No. Sherlock Holmes 0% existed; Dr. Joseph Bell 100% existed.
As I think I said somewhere else in this discussion, the way this issue arose wasn’t by anyone actually claiming in so many words that “God 50% exists” is a sensible thing to say. Although I’ve kinda-sorta defended saying some things of that kind, I agree that it’s not actually the best way to describe any state of affairs I can envisage. The actual question, IIRC, was whether it’s reasonable to regard theistic evolution as intermediate between special creation and naturalistic evolution. Those are all positions that can be held by theists (though in practice not many theists embrace naturalistic evolution) and seeing them as points on a continuum really doesn’t require one to endorse saying “God 50% exists” in any possible world.
The state isn’t “God 50% exists” but “there is evidence which indicates that God might exist, but the evidence is 50% as good (or there is 50% as much of it) as the evidence at the far end of the spectrum”. There’s a continuous line from lots of evidence for God, to some evidence for God, to no evidence for God.
You can talk about a spectrum between “planet large enough for life to exist”, “planet which is a little smaller which makes it a little harder for life to exist” all the way down to “no planet with no life”. You can do that because in this spectrum, the extent to which the planet exists and the chance of life are connected. In the God example, the spectrum is “degree to which things can be explained without God”. If you have evolution, there is one less thing that you need God to explain, and you get one step closer to not needing God to explain anything. And with nothing to need God for you can then reject the existence of God.
You could do a planet-size-spectrum like that; but reversing the analogy would be—I don’t know, some sort of spectrum ranging from “God doesn’t exist” to “God exists”? That seems a pretty binary set of points to me—how can the state of “God 50% exists” make any sort of sense?
Similarly, if nothing that you ever see requires the existence of Jim, then you can reject the existence of Jim, right?
Suppose it turns out that the skeptics are mostly right about Christianity, but that there really was an itinerant preacher called Yeshua in Galilee about 2000 years ago who talked about forgiveness and love and had a reputation for casting out demons and the like; but he didn’t really work any miracles, he didn’t get crucified, and he certainly didn’t rise from the dead.
Then: Did Jesus exist? Well, kinda. Someone existed who’s fairly clearly the person the gospels are about. No one existed about whom they’re actually accurate accounts. Many of the most important things about “Jesus” don’t apply to anyone. While it might feel a bit weird to say something like “Jesus 50% existed” in that case, I think it would give a reasonable idea of the situation.
I don’t think manipulating definitions can (or should) give rise to probability claims along the lines of “Jesus 50% existed”.
Jesus-the-Son-of-God and Jesus-the-itinerant-preacher are two very different people/concepts. No, they will not blend.
I wouldn’t want to defend the “50% existed” claim too seriously, but note that the discussion here was never really about explicit claims of that kind. It was about whether it’s appropriate to consider, e.g., “there is a god who gets involved in biological evolution” intermediate between “there is no god” and “there is a god who created every kind of living thing ex nihilo”. I say yes; CCC says no. The affirmative answer doesn’t require, e.g., being willing to say that a god who never does anything “50% exists”; only regarding a less-active god as in some sense intermediate between a more-active god and no god.
You can definitely plot all three points on the same graph—you can even plot them such that the distance from “there is no god” to “there is a god who created every kind of living thing ex nihilo” is greater than the distance from “there is a god who gets involved in biological evolution” to either of the two aforementioned points. That can all be done perfectly sensibly.
My claim is simply that the three points can’t be colinear on that graph.
...I hope that makes it a bit clearer.
It seems to me that you can plot them wherever you want to, so this is really a question of aesthetics more than anything else. Or is there some actual consequence that follows from one or another answer to this question?
...it would be a bit like plotting 0, 1 and i colinearly. (I assume you’re familiar with complex numbers?)
Yes, very familiar with complex numbers, thanks. But, I repeat, you can plot what you want however you want; the question is whether it’s helpful, and that will depend on the application. (Suppose the values taken by your dependent variable are all on the circle of radius 1/sqrt(2) centred at (1+i)/2. Then plotting 0, 1, and i collinearly may make a whole lot of sense, though you might actually want to call them −3pi/4, -pi/4 and pi/4 respectively.)
I reluctantly concede the point, but firmly maintain that calling them −3pi/4, -pi/4 and pi/4 respectively would make a lot more sense.
...I wouldn’t describe that as “God 50% exists”. I’d describe that as “someone with strong similarity to the biblical Jesus existed”.
To take an analogy, again, let us consider Dr. Joseph Bell. Dr. Bell was a medical school lecturer who emphasised the importance of close observation in making a diagnosis, and made a game of observing a stranger and deducing his occupation and recent activities. He was also the inspiration for the fictional character of Sherlock Holmes (who was famous for doing the same).
Does this imply that Sherlock Holmes 50% existed? No. Sherlock Holmes 0% existed; Dr. Joseph Bell 100% existed.
As I think I said somewhere else in this discussion, the way this issue arose wasn’t by anyone actually claiming in so many words that “God 50% exists” is a sensible thing to say. Although I’ve kinda-sorta defended saying some things of that kind, I agree that it’s not actually the best way to describe any state of affairs I can envisage. The actual question, IIRC, was whether it’s reasonable to regard theistic evolution as intermediate between special creation and naturalistic evolution. Those are all positions that can be held by theists (though in practice not many theists embrace naturalistic evolution) and seeing them as points on a continuum really doesn’t require one to endorse saying “God 50% exists” in any possible world.
The state isn’t “God 50% exists” but “there is evidence which indicates that God might exist, but the evidence is 50% as good (or there is 50% as much of it) as the evidence at the far end of the spectrum”. There’s a continuous line from lots of evidence for God, to some evidence for God, to no evidence for God.
That is a sensible axis, and you can move along it in a straight line, yes.
It’s just a different axis to either of the ones I was talking about.