Does that mean the bible which assumes that God wiped out most of humanity with the flood is definitely wrong
No.
a) The existence of an afterlife would mean that those people were not destroyed. They had a really bad day and then woke up someplace else.
b) The story of the flood, in itself, may be a parable (by which I mean, a story intended to teach a lesson, usually of a moral or ethical nature, without necessarily being true) like the parable of the Good Samaritan, or the story of the Garden of Eden.
c) There may have been reason for the flood.
Any one of these alternatives could answer your question; personally, I think (b) is the most likely, though (a) and (c) are also possible.
That whoever originally wrote that story intended it to be understood as fiction with a moral, rather than as truth?
That it may have originated as (alleged) history, but whoever incorporated it into the documents that became Jewish and Christian scriptures did so with the intention that it should be understood as fiction with a moral?
That whoever wrote it may have intended it to be seriously believed, but God arranged for it to land up in the Jewish and Christian scriptures with the intention that it should be treated as fiction with a moral?
That it doesn’t really matter why it was written or how it got into the scriptures, but nowadays it should be understood as fiction?
Something else?
It seems to me that the first three of these imply a certain degree of incompetence on the part of the writers, editors, or god concerned, given how widely the story has been treated as history since its incorporation into scripture.
The fourth is fair enough, but it seems to me that (what I take to be) ChristianKI’s inference “the bible contains this story, which is not true, so we should reduce our general confidence in what the bible says” is then reasonable (and indeed the decision to understand as fiction something in the bible that wasn’t originally intended that way amounts to conceding that point).
Of course if the fifth option is right then all of the above may be moot.
This is somewhat muddled by the idea that the original story may have been an oral tradition for some time before being written down—that is to say, the person who put pen to paper may not have been the one to create the story in the first place, and may in fact have been removed from that person by several generations.
So it is quite possible that whoever originally created the story may have intended it as fiction with a moral, but that it may have been understood as history by the person who put stylus to papyrus. Or it may have started out as history, gained some embellishment along the way, then rephrased to highlight a perceived moral, then embellished again to further highlight that moral, then only written down.
I am very uncertain of the history behind how it got there. I think that it is most probable that it is now fiction with a moral; and I think that there have been a whole lot of biblical passages that have been very firmly, and very publically, misunderstood by some people with very loud voices (such as pretty much the entire Creationism movement).
The fourth is fair enough, but it seems to me that (what I take to be) ChristianKI’s inference “the bible contains this story, which is not true, so we should reduce our general confidence in what the bible says” is then reasonable (and indeed the decision to understand as fiction something in the bible that wasn’t originally intended that way amounts to conceding that point).
I think that the Bible, especially the Old Testament, is a collection of some fiction, some non-fiction—one of the clearest examples of fiction (to my eyes) is the book of Job, which seems to be an entire story written in such a way that it can be performed as a play by a handful of actors with little-to-no equipment (all the dramatic stuff happens off-stage and is introduced by messengers running in and shouting “This happened!”).
I think that the morals that the fictional parts try to show are important; they should not be simply discounted and tossed aside because they did not happen.
Yeah. (I felt that my list of possibilities was already too long without bringing up the oral/written distinction, but it’s important enough in view of the gradual evolution of oral traditions that that was probably a mistake on my part.)
I’m not sure quite what you mean by saying that it’s now fiction with a moral; just that that’s how believers do (or should) read it now, or something stronger?
I agree that some things in the Bible seem clearly to be intended as fiction; I’d put Jonah alongside Job in that category. And I agree that one absolutely shouldn’t go from “X is fiction” to “let’s ignore X”. But going from “X was intended as history but turns out to be wrong history” to “let’s ignore X” is more reasonable, though still not a slam-dunk (because maybe the story originated as wrong history but was kept around for the sake of things in it that don’t depend on the history).
I’m not sure quite what you mean by saying that it’s now fiction with a moral; just that that’s how believers do (or should) read it now, or something stronger?
I’m pretty much saying that’s how I read it.
I agree that some things in the Bible seem clearly to be intended as fiction; I’d put Jonah alongside Job in that category. And I agree that one absolutely shouldn’t go from “X is fiction” to “let’s ignore X”. But going from “X was intended as history but turns out to be wrong history” to “let’s ignore X” is more reasonable, though still not a slam-dunk (because maybe the story originated as wrong history but was kept around for the sake of things in it that don’t depend on the history).
I’m not so sure about Jonah (he seems a good deal less clear-cut than Job—at the very least, Jonah would be very hard to stage without some pretty impressive special effects) but apart from that, I think I agree with everything in this paragraph.
I’m not suggesting that Jonah was intended as a play; I think it more likely that it was just intended to be read (or told aloud). But it seems (1) not very likely to be true-as-history even if we assume that some fairly miracle-happy version of Christianity or Judaism is right, (2) quite well designed as a story-with-a-moral, and (3) very much like the sort of story-with-a-moral that would get written to make a point. (I’m guessing that the background is one of controversy over the attitudes Israelites should have towards nasty heathen foreigners. Jonah is not meant to be a sympathetic figure in this story.)
Well, Ninevah at least was a place that actually existed (according to Wikipedia). Beyond that… well, you make some good points, but I still think it’s far less clear-cut than Job.
b) The story of the flood, in itself, may be a parable (by which I mean, a story intended to teach a lesson, usually of a moral or ethical nature,
If it’s a parable, isn’t the parable about the fact that certain actions like gay sex are bad enough that they warrant a God engaging in genocide?
Even if the God didn’t actually commit the genocide but merely wanted to make the point that doing so is justified, that still seems bad to me.
No.
a) The existence of an afterlife would mean that those people were not destroyed. They had a really bad day and then woke up someplace else.
b) The story of the flood, in itself, may be a parable (by which I mean, a story intended to teach a lesson, usually of a moral or ethical nature, without necessarily being true) like the parable of the Good Samaritan, or the story of the Garden of Eden.
c) There may have been reason for the flood.
Any one of these alternatives could answer your question; personally, I think (b) is the most likely, though (a) and (c) are also possible.
What exactly do you mean by option (b)?
That whoever originally wrote that story intended it to be understood as fiction with a moral, rather than as truth?
That it may have originated as (alleged) history, but whoever incorporated it into the documents that became Jewish and Christian scriptures did so with the intention that it should be understood as fiction with a moral?
That whoever wrote it may have intended it to be seriously believed, but God arranged for it to land up in the Jewish and Christian scriptures with the intention that it should be treated as fiction with a moral?
That it doesn’t really matter why it was written or how it got into the scriptures, but nowadays it should be understood as fiction?
Something else?
It seems to me that the first three of these imply a certain degree of incompetence on the part of the writers, editors, or god concerned, given how widely the story has been treated as history since its incorporation into scripture.
The fourth is fair enough, but it seems to me that (what I take to be) ChristianKI’s inference “the bible contains this story, which is not true, so we should reduce our general confidence in what the bible says” is then reasonable (and indeed the decision to understand as fiction something in the bible that wasn’t originally intended that way amounts to conceding that point).
Of course if the fifth option is right then all of the above may be moot.
This is somewhat muddled by the idea that the original story may have been an oral tradition for some time before being written down—that is to say, the person who put pen to paper may not have been the one to create the story in the first place, and may in fact have been removed from that person by several generations.
So it is quite possible that whoever originally created the story may have intended it as fiction with a moral, but that it may have been understood as history by the person who put stylus to papyrus. Or it may have started out as history, gained some embellishment along the way, then rephrased to highlight a perceived moral, then embellished again to further highlight that moral, then only written down.
I am very uncertain of the history behind how it got there. I think that it is most probable that it is now fiction with a moral; and I think that there have been a whole lot of biblical passages that have been very firmly, and very publically, misunderstood by some people with very loud voices (such as pretty much the entire Creationism movement).
I think that the Bible, especially the Old Testament, is a collection of some fiction, some non-fiction—one of the clearest examples of fiction (to my eyes) is the book of Job, which seems to be an entire story written in such a way that it can be performed as a play by a handful of actors with little-to-no equipment (all the dramatic stuff happens off-stage and is introduced by messengers running in and shouting “This happened!”).
I think that the morals that the fictional parts try to show are important; they should not be simply discounted and tossed aside because they did not happen.
Yeah. (I felt that my list of possibilities was already too long without bringing up the oral/written distinction, but it’s important enough in view of the gradual evolution of oral traditions that that was probably a mistake on my part.)
I’m not sure quite what you mean by saying that it’s now fiction with a moral; just that that’s how believers do (or should) read it now, or something stronger?
I agree that some things in the Bible seem clearly to be intended as fiction; I’d put Jonah alongside Job in that category. And I agree that one absolutely shouldn’t go from “X is fiction” to “let’s ignore X”. But going from “X was intended as history but turns out to be wrong history” to “let’s ignore X” is more reasonable, though still not a slam-dunk (because maybe the story originated as wrong history but was kept around for the sake of things in it that don’t depend on the history).
I’m pretty much saying that’s how I read it.
I’m not so sure about Jonah (he seems a good deal less clear-cut than Job—at the very least, Jonah would be very hard to stage without some pretty impressive special effects) but apart from that, I think I agree with everything in this paragraph.
I’m not suggesting that Jonah was intended as a play; I think it more likely that it was just intended to be read (or told aloud). But it seems (1) not very likely to be true-as-history even if we assume that some fairly miracle-happy version of Christianity or Judaism is right, (2) quite well designed as a story-with-a-moral, and (3) very much like the sort of story-with-a-moral that would get written to make a point. (I’m guessing that the background is one of controversy over the attitudes Israelites should have towards nasty heathen foreigners. Jonah is not meant to be a sympathetic figure in this story.)
Well, Ninevah at least was a place that actually existed (according to Wikipedia). Beyond that… well, you make some good points, but I still think it’s far less clear-cut than Job.
If it’s a parable, isn’t the parable about the fact that certain actions like gay sex are bad enough that they warrant a God engaging in genocide? Even if the God didn’t actually commit the genocide but merely wanted to make the point that doing so is justified, that still seems bad to me.
I think there are multiple morals.
If you do something that you know you shouldn’t, there will almost certainly be bad consequences.
Not knowing what those consequences are will not prevent them from happening.
If you act in the correct way and take competent instruction, you can save yourself even while everyone around you dies.
In such circumstances, it may not actually be possible to save those around you without dooming yourself.
When going out into a dangerous situation, find some way to check how safe it is first.
Look after your animals. (This would be more relevant in a more agricultural society)