LessWrong has now descended to actually arguing over the Kolmogorov complexity of the Christian God, as if this was a serious question.
Well, there is a lot of motivated cognition on that topic (relevant disclaimer, I’m an atheist in the conventional sense of the word) and it seems deceptively straight forward to answer (mostly by KC-dabblers), but it is in fact anything but. The non-triviality arises from technical considerations, not some philosophical obscurantism.
This may be the wrong comment chain to get into it, and your grandstanding doesn’t exactly signal an immediate willingness to engage in medias res, so I won’t elaborate for the moment (unless you want me to).
The non-triviality arises from technical considerations
The laws of physics as we know them are very simple, and we believe that they may actually be even simpler. Meanwhile, a mind existing outside of physics is somehow a more consistent and simple explanation than humans having hardware in the brain that promotes hypotheses involving human-like agents behind everything, which explains away every religion ever? Minds are not simpler than physics. This is not a technical controversy.
Go on and elaborate, but unless you can show some very thorough technical considerations, I just don’t see how you’re able to claim a mind has low Kolmogorov complexity.
“Mind” is a high level concept, on a base level it is just a subset of specific physical structures. The precise arrangement of water molecules in a waterfall, over time, matches if not dwarves the KC of a mind.
That is, if you wanted to recreate precisely this or that waterfall as it precisely happened (with the orientation of each water molecule preserved with high fidelity), the strict computational complexity would be way higher than for a comparatively more ordered and static mind.
The data doesn’t care what importance you ascribe to it. It’s not as if, say, “power”, automatically comes with “hard to describe computationally”. On the contrary, allowing for a function to do arbitrary code changes is easier to implement that defining precise power limitations (see constraining an AI’s utility function).
Then there’s the sheer number of mind-phenomena, are you suggesting adding one by necessity increases complexity? In fact, removing one can increase it as well: If I were to describe a reality in which ceteris is paribus, with the exception of your mind not actually being a mind, then by removing a mind I would have increased overall complexity. Not even taking into account that there are plenty of mind-templates around already (implicitly, since KC, even though uncomputable, is optimal), and that for complexity considerations, adding another of a template isn’t even adding much, necessarily (I’m aware that adding just a few bits already comes with a steep penalty, this comment isn’t meant to be exhaustive). See also the alphabet example further on.
Then there’s the illusion that somehow our universe is of low complexity just because the physical laws governing the transition between time-steps are simple. That is mistaken. If we just look at the laws, and start with a big bang that is not precisely informationally described, we get a multiverse host of possible universes with our universe not in the beginning, which goes counter the KC demands. You may say “I don’t care, as long as our universe is somewhere in the output, that’s fine”. But then I propose an even simpler theory of everything: Output a long enough sequence of Pi, and you eventually get our universe somewhere down the line as well. So our universe’s actual complexity is enourmous, down to atoms in a stone on a hill on some moon somewhere in the next galaxy. There exists a clear trade-off between explanatory power and conciseness. I used to link an old Hutter lecture on that latter topic a few years ago, I can dig it out if you’d like. (ETA: See for example the paragraph labeled “A” on page 6 in this paper of his).
The old argument that |”universe + mind”| > |”universe”| is simplistic and ill-applied. Unlike with probabilities, the sequence ABCDABCDABCDABCD can be less complex than ABCDABCDABCDABC.
The list goes on, if you want to focus on some aspect of it we can go into greater depth on that. Bottom line is, if there’s a slam dunk case, I don’t see it.
Well, there is a lot of motivated cognition on that topic (relevant disclaimer, I’m an atheist in the conventional sense of the word) and it seems deceptively straight forward to answer (mostly by KC-dabblers), but it is in fact anything but. The non-triviality arises from technical considerations, not some philosophical obscurantism.
This may be the wrong comment chain to get into it, and your grandstanding doesn’t exactly signal an immediate willingness to engage in medias res, so I won’t elaborate for the moment (unless you want me to).
The laws of physics as we know them are very simple, and we believe that they may actually be even simpler. Meanwhile, a mind existing outside of physics is somehow a more consistent and simple explanation than humans having hardware in the brain that promotes hypotheses involving human-like agents behind everything, which explains away every religion ever? Minds are not simpler than physics. This is not a technical controversy.
Go on and elaborate, but unless you can show some very thorough technical considerations, I just don’t see how you’re able to claim a mind has low Kolmogorov complexity.
“Mind” is a high level concept, on a base level it is just a subset of specific physical structures. The precise arrangement of water molecules in a waterfall, over time, matches if not dwarves the KC of a mind.
That is, if you wanted to recreate precisely this or that waterfall as it precisely happened (with the orientation of each water molecule preserved with high fidelity), the strict computational complexity would be way higher than for a comparatively more ordered and static mind.
The data doesn’t care what importance you ascribe to it. It’s not as if, say, “power”, automatically comes with “hard to describe computationally”. On the contrary, allowing for a function to do arbitrary code changes is easier to implement that defining precise power limitations (see constraining an AI’s utility function).
Then there’s the sheer number of mind-phenomena, are you suggesting adding one by necessity increases complexity? In fact, removing one can increase it as well: If I were to describe a reality in which ceteris is paribus, with the exception of your mind not actually being a mind, then by removing a mind I would have increased overall complexity. Not even taking into account that there are plenty of mind-templates around already (implicitly, since KC, even though uncomputable, is optimal), and that for complexity considerations, adding another of a template isn’t even adding much, necessarily (I’m aware that adding just a few bits already comes with a steep penalty, this comment isn’t meant to be exhaustive). See also the alphabet example further on.
Then there’s the illusion that somehow our universe is of low complexity just because the physical laws governing the transition between time-steps are simple. That is mistaken. If we just look at the laws, and start with a big bang that is not precisely informationally described, we get a multiverse host of possible universes with our universe not in the beginning, which goes counter the KC demands. You may say “I don’t care, as long as our universe is somewhere in the output, that’s fine”. But then I propose an even simpler theory of everything: Output a long enough sequence of Pi, and you eventually get our universe somewhere down the line as well. So our universe’s actual complexity is enourmous, down to atoms in a stone on a hill on some moon somewhere in the next galaxy. There exists a clear trade-off between explanatory power and conciseness. I used to link an old Hutter lecture on that latter topic a few years ago, I can dig it out if you’d like. (ETA: See for example the paragraph labeled “A” on page 6 in this paper of his).
The old argument that |”universe + mind”| > |”universe”| is simplistic and ill-applied. Unlike with probabilities, the sequence ABCDABCDABCDABCD can be less complex than ABCDABCDABCDABC.
The list goes on, if you want to focus on some aspect of it we can go into greater depth on that. Bottom line is, if there’s a slam dunk case, I don’t see it.