(shrug) After the process you describe, there exist two people in identical bodies with identical memories. What conceivable difference does it make which of those people we label “me”? What conceivable difference does it make whether we label both of those people “me”?
If there is some X that differs between those people, such that the label “me” applies to one value of X but not the other value, then talking about which one is “me” makes sense. We might not be able to detect the difference, but there is a difference; if we improved the quality of our X-detectors we would be able to detect it.
But if there is no such X, then for as long as we continue talking about which of those people is “me,” we are not talking about anything in the world. Under those circumstances it’s best to set aside the question of which is “me.”
“(shrug) After the process you describe, there exist two people in identical bodies with identical memories. What conceivable difference does it make which of those people we label “me”? What conceivable difference does it make whether we label both of those people “me”″
Because we already have a legal precedent. Twins.
Though their memories are very limited they are legally different people.
My position is rightly so.
Identical twins, even at birth, are different people: they’re genetically identical and shared a very close prenatal environment, but the actual fork happened sometime during the zygote stage of development, when neither twin had a nervous system let alone a mind-state. But I’m not sure why you’re bringing this up in the first place: legalities don’t help us settle philosophical questions. At best they point to a formalization of the folk solution.
As best I can tell, you’re trying to suggest that individual personhood is bound to a particular physical instance of a human being (albeit without actually saying so). Fair enough, but I’m not sure I know of any evidence for that proposition other than vague and usually implicitly dualist intuitions. I’m not a specialist in this area, though. What’s your reasoning?
Risk avoidance. I’m uncomfortable with taking the position that creating a second copy and destroying the original is the original simply because if it isn’t then the original is now dead.
Yes, but how do you conclude that a risk exists? Two philosophical positions don’t mean fifty-fifty chances that one is correct; intuition is literally the only evidence for one of the alternatives here to the best of my knowledge, and we already know that human intuitions can go badly off the rails when confronted with problems related to anthropomorphism.
Granted, we can’t yet trace down human thoughts and motivations to the neuron level, but we’ll certainly be able to by the time we’re able to destructively scan people into simulations; if there’s any secret sauce involved, we’ll by then know it’s there if not exactly what it is. If dualism turns out to win by then I’ll gladly admit I was wrong; but if any evidence hasn’t shown up by that time, it sounds an awful lot like all there is to fall back on is the failure mode in “But There’s Still A Chance, Right?”.
I read that earlier, and it doesn’t answer the question. If you believe that the second copy in your scenario is different from the first copy in some deep existential sense at the time of division (equivalently, that personhood corresponds to something other than unique brain state), you’ve already assumed a conclusion to all questions along these lines—and in fact gone past all questions of risk of death and into certainty.
But you haven’t provided any reasoning for that belief: you’ve just outlined the consequences of it from several different angles.
Yes, we have two people after this process has completed… I said that in the first place. What follows from that?
EDIT: Reading your other comments, I think I now understand what you’re getting at.
No, if we’re talking about only the instant of duplication and not any other instant, then I would say that in that instant we have one person in two locations.
But as soon as the person at those locations start to accumulate independent experiences, then we have two people.
Similarly, if I create a static backup of a snapshot of myself, and create a dozen duplicates of that backup, I haven’t created a dozen new people, and if I delete all of those duplicates I haven’t destroyed any people.
(shrug) After the process you describe, there exist two people in identical bodies with identical memories. What conceivable difference does it make which of those people we label “me”? What conceivable difference does it make whether we label both of those people “me”?
If there is some X that differs between those people, such that the label “me” applies to one value of X but not the other value, then talking about which one is “me” makes sense. We might not be able to detect the difference, but there is a difference; if we improved the quality of our X-detectors we would be able to detect it.
But if there is no such X, then for as long as we continue talking about which of those people is “me,” we are not talking about anything in the world. Under those circumstances it’s best to set aside the question of which is “me.”
“(shrug) After the process you describe, there exist two people in identical bodies with identical memories. What conceivable difference does it make which of those people we label “me”? What conceivable difference does it make whether we label both of those people “me”″
Because we already have a legal precedent. Twins. Though their memories are very limited they are legally different people. My position is rightly so.
Identical twins, even at birth, are different people: they’re genetically identical and shared a very close prenatal environment, but the actual fork happened sometime during the zygote stage of development, when neither twin had a nervous system let alone a mind-state. But I’m not sure why you’re bringing this up in the first place: legalities don’t help us settle philosophical questions. At best they point to a formalization of the folk solution.
As best I can tell, you’re trying to suggest that individual personhood is bound to a particular physical instance of a human being (albeit without actually saying so). Fair enough, but I’m not sure I know of any evidence for that proposition other than vague and usually implicitly dualist intuitions. I’m not a specialist in this area, though. What’s your reasoning?
Risk avoidance. I’m uncomfortable with taking the position that creating a second copy and destroying the original is the original simply because if it isn’t then the original is now dead.
Yes, but how do you conclude that a risk exists? Two philosophical positions don’t mean fifty-fifty chances that one is correct; intuition is literally the only evidence for one of the alternatives here to the best of my knowledge, and we already know that human intuitions can go badly off the rails when confronted with problems related to anthropomorphism.
Granted, we can’t yet trace down human thoughts and motivations to the neuron level, but we’ll certainly be able to by the time we’re able to destructively scan people into simulations; if there’s any secret sauce involved, we’ll by then know it’s there if not exactly what it is. If dualism turns out to win by then I’ll gladly admit I was wrong; but if any evidence hasn’t shown up by that time, it sounds an awful lot like all there is to fall back on is the failure mode in “But There’s Still A Chance, Right?”.
Here’s why I conclude a risk exists: http://lesswrong.com/lw/b9/welcome_to_less_wrong/5huo?context=1#5huo
I read that earlier, and it doesn’t answer the question. If you believe that the second copy in your scenario is different from the first copy in some deep existential sense at the time of division (equivalently, that personhood corresponds to something other than unique brain state), you’ve already assumed a conclusion to all questions along these lines—and in fact gone past all questions of risk of death and into certainty.
But you haven’t provided any reasoning for that belief: you’ve just outlined the consequences of it from several different angles.
Yes, we have two people after this process has completed… I said that in the first place. What follows from that?
EDIT: Reading your other comments, I think I now understand what you’re getting at.
No, if we’re talking about only the instant of duplication and not any other instant, then I would say that in that instant we have one person in two locations.
But as soon as the person at those locations start to accumulate independent experiences, then we have two people.
Similarly, if I create a static backup of a snapshot of myself, and create a dozen duplicates of that backup, I haven’t created a dozen new people, and if I delete all of those duplicates I haven’t destroyed any people.
The uniqueness of experience is important.
this follows: http://lesswrong.com/lw/b9/welcome_to_less_wrong/5huo?context=1#5huo