1: The universe seems slanted towards Entropy. This suggests a ‘start’. Which suggests something to start the universe. This of course has a great many logical fallacies inherent in it, but it’s one element.
If this point is logically fallacious, why is it the foundation of your belief? Eliezer has addressed the topic, but that post focuses more on whether one should jump to the idea of God from the idea of a First Cause, which you do seem to have thought about. But why assume a First Cause at all?
On a slightly different tack, if Thor came down (Or is it up? My Norse mythology is a little rusty) from Valhalla, tossed some thunderbolts around, and otherwise provided various sorts of strong evidence to support his claim that he was the God of Thunder with all that that entails, would you then worship him? Or, to put it another way, is there some evidence that would make you change your mind?
(Apologies if I’m being too aggressive with my questions. You seem like good people, and I wouldn’t want to drive you away.)
Oh, no, not at all! I’m quite happy to have people interested in what I have to say, but I’m trying to keep my conversation suitable for the ‘Welcome to Less Wrong’ thread, and not have it get too big. ^_^
As far as ‘If it’s logically fallacious, why is it the foundation of your belief?’
Well, it’s not the foundation of my belief, it’s just a very strong element thereof. It would probably require several months of dedicated effort and perhaps 30,000 words to really hit the whole of my belief with any sort of holistic effort. However, why assume a First Cause? Well, because of entropy, we have to assume some sort of start for this iteration. Anything past that starts getting into extreme hypotheticals that only really ‘make more sense than God’ if it suits your pre-existing conditions. And no, I’m not saying God makes more sense outside of a bias—more that given a clean slate, “There might be laws of physics we can’t detect because they don’t function in a universe where they’ve already countered entropy to a new start state” is about equal to “Maybe there’s a Deity figure that decided it wanted to start the universe” are about equal in my mind. And to be fair, ‘deity figure’ could be equivalent to ‘Higher-level universe’s programmer making a computer game.’ Or this could all be a simulation, and none of it’s actually real, or, or, or…
But the reason that I decide to accept this as a basic assumption is that, eventually, you have to assume that there is truth, and work off of the existing scientific knowledge instead of waiting for brand new world-shattering discoveries in the field of metaphysics. So I keep an interested eye on stuff like brane vibration or cosmic froth, but still assume that entropy happens, and the universe had an actual start.
if Thor came down throwing lightning bolts and etc, and claiming our worship, I’d be… well, admittedly, a little confused, and unsure. That’s not exactly his MO from classic Norse mythology (which I love) and Norse mythology really didn’t have the oomph of world creation that goes together with scientific evidence. I’d have to wonder if he wasn’t a Nephilim or alien playing tricks. (Hi, Stargate SG-1!)
However, I take your meaning. If some deity figure came down and said, “hey, here’s proof,” yeah, I’d have a LOT of re-evaluating to do. It’d depend a lot on circumstances, and what sort of evidence of the past, rather than just pure displays of power, the deity figure could present. What answers does it have to the tough questions? Does it match certain anti-christ elements from Revelations?
Alternatively, what sort of evidence would make me change my mind and become atheist?
I would love to be able to easily say, “Yeah, if this happened, I’d totally change my mind in an instant!” but I am aware that I’m only human, and certain beliefs have momentum in my mind. Negative circumstance certainly won’t do it—I’ve long ago resolved the “Why does a good God allow bad things to happen?” element. Idiotic Christian fanboys won’t do it—I’ve been developing a very careful attitude towards religion and politics in divorcing ideas from the proponents of ideas. And if I had an idea what that proof would be—I’d already be researching it. So I just keep kicking around looking for new stuff to research.
Sounds like you’ve given this some serious thought and avoided all kinds of failure modes. While I disagree with you and think that there’s probably an interesting discussion here, I agree that this probably isn’t the place to get into it. Welcome to Less Wrong, and I hope you stick around.
I’ve certainly tried, thank you very much. I think that might be the most satisfying reaction I could have hoped to receive. ^_^ I hope to stick around for a good long time, too… this site’s rivaling “TV Tropes” for the ability to completely suck me in for hours at a time without me noticing it.
If this point is logically fallacious, why is it the foundation of your belief? Eliezer has addressed the topic, but that post focuses more on whether one should jump to the idea of God from the idea of a First Cause, which you do seem to have thought about. But why assume a First Cause at all?
On a slightly different tack, if Thor came down (Or is it up? My Norse mythology is a little rusty) from Valhalla, tossed some thunderbolts around, and otherwise provided various sorts of strong evidence to support his claim that he was the God of Thunder with all that that entails, would you then worship him? Or, to put it another way, is there some evidence that would make you change your mind?
(Apologies if I’m being too aggressive with my questions. You seem like good people, and I wouldn’t want to drive you away.)
Oh, no, not at all! I’m quite happy to have people interested in what I have to say, but I’m trying to keep my conversation suitable for the ‘Welcome to Less Wrong’ thread, and not have it get too big. ^_^
As far as ‘If it’s logically fallacious, why is it the foundation of your belief?’
Well, it’s not the foundation of my belief, it’s just a very strong element thereof. It would probably require several months of dedicated effort and perhaps 30,000 words to really hit the whole of my belief with any sort of holistic effort. However, why assume a First Cause? Well, because of entropy, we have to assume some sort of start for this iteration. Anything past that starts getting into extreme hypotheticals that only really ‘make more sense than God’ if it suits your pre-existing conditions. And no, I’m not saying God makes more sense outside of a bias—more that given a clean slate, “There might be laws of physics we can’t detect because they don’t function in a universe where they’ve already countered entropy to a new start state” is about equal to “Maybe there’s a Deity figure that decided it wanted to start the universe” are about equal in my mind. And to be fair, ‘deity figure’ could be equivalent to ‘Higher-level universe’s programmer making a computer game.’ Or this could all be a simulation, and none of it’s actually real, or, or, or…
But the reason that I decide to accept this as a basic assumption is that, eventually, you have to assume that there is truth, and work off of the existing scientific knowledge instead of waiting for brand new world-shattering discoveries in the field of metaphysics. So I keep an interested eye on stuff like brane vibration or cosmic froth, but still assume that entropy happens, and the universe had an actual start.
if Thor came down throwing lightning bolts and etc, and claiming our worship, I’d be… well, admittedly, a little confused, and unsure. That’s not exactly his MO from classic Norse mythology (which I love) and Norse mythology really didn’t have the oomph of world creation that goes together with scientific evidence. I’d have to wonder if he wasn’t a Nephilim or alien playing tricks. (Hi, Stargate SG-1!)
However, I take your meaning. If some deity figure came down and said, “hey, here’s proof,” yeah, I’d have a LOT of re-evaluating to do. It’d depend a lot on circumstances, and what sort of evidence of the past, rather than just pure displays of power, the deity figure could present. What answers does it have to the tough questions? Does it match certain anti-christ elements from Revelations?
Alternatively, what sort of evidence would make me change my mind and become atheist?
I would love to be able to easily say, “Yeah, if this happened, I’d totally change my mind in an instant!” but I am aware that I’m only human, and certain beliefs have momentum in my mind. Negative circumstance certainly won’t do it—I’ve long ago resolved the “Why does a good God allow bad things to happen?” element. Idiotic Christian fanboys won’t do it—I’ve been developing a very careful attitude towards religion and politics in divorcing ideas from the proponents of ideas. And if I had an idea what that proof would be—I’d already be researching it. So I just keep kicking around looking for new stuff to research.
Thank you for the interest!
Sounds like you’ve given this some serious thought and avoided all kinds of failure modes. While I disagree with you and think that there’s probably an interesting discussion here, I agree that this probably isn’t the place to get into it. Welcome to Less Wrong, and I hope you stick around.
I’ve certainly tried, thank you very much. I think that might be the most satisfying reaction I could have hoped to receive. ^_^ I hope to stick around for a good long time, too… this site’s rivaling “TV Tropes” for the ability to completely suck me in for hours at a time without me noticing it.