I’m curious what you think of evidence that early Christianity adopted the date of Christmas and other rituals from pre-existing pagan religions?
ETA: I’m not saying that this would detract from the central Christian message (i.e. Jesus sacrificing himself to redeem our sins). But that sort of memetic infection seems like a strange thing to happen to an objective truth.
I think it indicates that Christians have done stupid things and one must be discerning about traditions rather than blindly accepting everything taught in church as 100% true, and certainly not everything commonly believed by laypersons!
It’s not surprising (unless this is hindsight bias—it might actually BE surprising, considering how unwilling Christians should have been to make compromises like that, but a lot of time passed between Jesus’s death and Christianity taking over Europe, didn’t it?) that humans would be humans. I can see where I might have even considered the same in that situation—everyone likes holidays, everyone should be Christian, pagans get a fun solstice holiday, Christians don’t, this is making people want to be Christian less. Let’s fix it by having our own holiday. At least then we can make it about Jesus, right?
The worship and deification of Mary is similar, which is why I don’t pray to her.
So, suppose I find a church I choose (for whatever reason) to associate with. We seem to agree that I shouldn’t believe everything taught in that church, and I shouldn’t believe everything believed by members of that church… I should compare those teachings and beliefs to my own expectations about and experiences of the world to decide what I believe and what I don’t, just as you have used your own expectations about and experiences of human nature to decide whether to believe various claims about when Jesus was born, what properties Mary had, etc.
So, my own experience of having compared the teachings and beliefs of a couple of churches I was for various reasons associated with to my own expectations about and experiences of the world was that, after doing so, I didn’t believe that Jesus was exceptionally divine or that the New Testament was a particularly reliable source of either moral truths or information about the physical world.
Would you say that I made an error in my evaluations?
Possibly. Or you may be lacking information; if your assumptions were wrong at the beginning and you used good reasoning, you’d come to the wrong conclusion.
Ehh… even when you don’t mean it literally, you probably shouldn’t say such things as “first day as a rationalist”. It’s kind of hard to increase one’s capability for rational thinking without keeping in mind at all times how it’s a many-sided gradient with more than one dimension.
Here’s one:
Let’s say that the world is a simulation AND that strongly godlike AI is possible.
To all intents and purposes, even though the bible in the simulation is provably inconsistent, the existence of a being indistinguishable from the God in such a bible would not be ruled out because though the inhabitants of the world are constrained by the rules of physics in their own state machines or objects or whatever, the universe containing the simulation is subject to it’s own set of physics and logic and therefore may vary even inside the simulation but not be detectable to you or I.
Yes of course this is possible. So is the Tipler scenario. However, the simulation argument just as easily supports any of a vast number of god-theories, of which Christianity is just one of many. That being said, it does support judeo-xian type systems more than say Hindiusm or Vodun.
There may even be economical reasons to create universes like ours, but that’s a very unpopular position on LW.
I’m curious what you think of evidence that early Christianity adopted the date of Christmas and other rituals from pre-existing pagan religions?
ETA: I’m not saying that this would detract from the central Christian message (i.e. Jesus sacrificing himself to redeem our sins). But that sort of memetic infection seems like a strange thing to happen to an objective truth.
I think it indicates that Christians have done stupid things and one must be discerning about traditions rather than blindly accepting everything taught in church as 100% true, and certainly not everything commonly believed by laypersons!
It’s not surprising (unless this is hindsight bias—it might actually BE surprising, considering how unwilling Christians should have been to make compromises like that, but a lot of time passed between Jesus’s death and Christianity taking over Europe, didn’t it?) that humans would be humans. I can see where I might have even considered the same in that situation—everyone likes holidays, everyone should be Christian, pagans get a fun solstice holiday, Christians don’t, this is making people want to be Christian less. Let’s fix it by having our own holiday. At least then we can make it about Jesus, right?
The worship and deification of Mary is similar, which is why I don’t pray to her.
That’s interesting.
So, suppose I find a church I choose (for whatever reason) to associate with. We seem to agree that I shouldn’t believe everything taught in that church, and I shouldn’t believe everything believed by members of that church… I should compare those teachings and beliefs to my own expectations about and experiences of the world to decide what I believe and what I don’t, just as you have used your own expectations about and experiences of human nature to decide whether to believe various claims about when Jesus was born, what properties Mary had, etc.
Yes? Or have I misunderstood you?
Yes. Upvoted for both understanding me and trying to avoid the illusion of transparency.
OK, cool.
So, my own experience of having compared the teachings and beliefs of a couple of churches I was for various reasons associated with to my own expectations about and experiences of the world was that, after doing so, I didn’t believe that Jesus was exceptionally divine or that the New Testament was a particularly reliable source of either moral truths or information about the physical world.
Would you say that I made an error in my evaluations?
Possibly. Or you may be lacking information; if your assumptions were wrong at the beginning and you used good reasoning, you’d come to the wrong conclusion.
Do you have particular assumptions in mind here? Or is this a more general statement about the nature of reasoning?
It’s a statement so general you probably learned it on your first day as a rationalist.
In other words, “Garbage in, garbage out?”
Yes.
Ehh… even when you don’t mean it literally, you probably shouldn’t say such things as “first day as a rationalist”. It’s kind of hard to increase one’s capability for rational thinking without keeping in mind at all times how it’s a many-sided gradient with more than one dimension.
Here’s one: Let’s say that the world is a simulation AND that strongly godlike AI is possible. To all intents and purposes, even though the bible in the simulation is provably inconsistent, the existence of a being indistinguishable from the God in such a bible would not be ruled out because though the inhabitants of the world are constrained by the rules of physics in their own state machines or objects or whatever, the universe containing the simulation is subject to it’s own set of physics and logic and therefore may vary even inside the simulation but not be detectable to you or I.
Yes of course this is possible. So is the Tipler scenario. However, the simulation argument just as easily supports any of a vast number of god-theories, of which Christianity is just one of many. That being said, it does support judeo-xian type systems more than say Hindiusm or Vodun.
There may even be economical reasons to create universes like ours, but that’s a very unpopular position on LW.
Come on. Don’t vote me down without responding.