So maybe what you consider as “Crocker’s rules” is what most people here would consider “normal” discussion, so when you call Crocker’s rules, people are extra rude.
Possible. I’m inexperienced in talking with neurotypicals. All I know is what was drilled into me by them, which is basically a bunch of things of the form “don’t ever convey this piece of information because it’s rude” (where the piece of information is like… you have hairy arms, you’re wrong, I don’t like this food, I don’t enjoy spending time with you, this gift was not optimized for making me happy—and the really awful, horrible dark side where they feel pressured never to say certain things to me, like that I’m wrong, they’re annoyed by something I’m doing, I’m ugly, I sound stupid, my writing needs improvement—it’s horrible to deal with people who never say those things because I can never assume sincerity, I just have to assume they’re lying all the time) that upon meeting other neurodiverse I immediately proceeded to forget all about. And so did they. And THAT works out well. It’s accepted within that community that “Crocker’s rules” is how the rest of the world will refer to it.
Anyway, if I’m not allowed to hear the truth without having to listen to whatever insults anyone can come up with, then so be it, I really want to hear the truth and I know it will never be given to me otherwise. But there IS supposed to be something between “you are not allowed to say anything to me except that I’m right about everything and the most wonderful special snowflake ever” and “insult me in every way you can think of”, even if the latter is still preferable to the former. (Is this community a place with a middle ground? If so, I didn’t think such existed. If so, I’ll gladly go by the normal rules of discussion here.)
the baseline interaction mode would be considered rude-but-not-insulting by most American subcultures, especially neurotypical ones
the interaction mode invoked by “Crocker’s rules” would be considered insulting by most American subcultures, especially neurotypical ones
there’s considerable heterogeneity in terms of what’s considered unacceptably rude
there’s a tentative consensus that dealing with occasional unacceptable rudeness is preferable to the consequences of disallowing occasional unacceptable rudeness, and
the community pushes back on perceived attempts to enforce politeness far more strongly than it pushes back on perceived rudeness.
Dunno if any of that answers your questions.
I would also say that nobody here has come even remotely close to “insult in every conceivable way” as an operating mode.
the baseline interaction mode would be considered rude-but-not-insulting by most American subcultures, especially neurotypical ones
the community pushes back on perceived attempts to enforce politeness far more strongly than it pushes back on perceived rudeness.
YES!
There seem to be a lot of new people introducing themselves on the Welcome thread today/yesterday. I would like to encourage everyone to maybe be just a tad bit more polite, and cognizant of the Principle of Charity, at least for the next week or two, so all our newcomers can acclimate to the culture here.
As someone who has only been on this site for a month or two (also as a NT, socially-skilled, female), I have spoken in the past about my difficulties dealing with the harshness here. I ended up deciding not to fight it, since people seem to like it that way, and that’s ok. But I do think the community needs to be aware that this IS in fact an issue that new (especially NT) people are likely to shy away from, and even leave or just not post because of.
tl;dr- I deal with the “rudeness”, but want people to be aware that is does in fact exist. Those of us who dislike it have just learned to keep our mouths shut and deal with it. There are a lot of new people now, so try to soften it for the next week or two.
(Note: I have not been recently down-voted, flamed, or crushed, so this isn’t just me raging.)
I’m unlikely to change my style of presentation here as a consequence of new people arriving, especially since I find it unlikely that the wave of introductions reflects an actual influx of new people, as opposed to an influx of activity on the Welcome threads making the threads more visible and inspiring introductions.
If my presentation style is offputting to new people who prefer a different style, I agree that’s unfortunate. I’m not sure that my dealing by changing my style for their benefit—supposing they even benefit from it—is better.
You are correct, in that I do believe that many of the introductions here are people who have been lurking a long time, but are following the principle of social proof, and just introducing themselves now that everyone else is.
However, I do think that once they have gone through the motions of setting up an account an publishing their introduction, that self-consistency will lead them to continue to be more active on this site; They have just changed their self-image to that of “Member of LW” after all!
Your other supposition- that they might not benefit from it… I will tell you that I have almost quit LW many times in the past month, and it is only a lack of anything better out there that has kept me here.
My assumption is that you are OK with this, and feel that people that can’t handle the heat should get out of the kitchen anyway, so to speak.
I think that is a valid point, IFF you want to maintain LW as it currently stands. I will admit that my preferences are different in that I hope LW grows and gets more and more participants. I also hope that this growth causes LW to be more “inclusive” and have a higher percentage of females (gender stereotyping here, sorry) and NTs, which will in effect lower the harshness of the site.
So I think our disagreement doesn’t stem from “bad” rationality on either of our parts. It’s just that we have different end-goals.
I’m sorry, I did not want to imply that you specifically made me want to quit. In all honesty, the lack of visual avatars means I can’t keep LW users straight at all.
But since you seem to be asking about your presentation style, here is me re-writing your previous post in a way that is optimized for a conversation I would enjoy, without feeling discomfort.
Original:
I’m unlikely to change my style of presentation here as a consequence of new people arriving, especially since I find it unlikely that the wave of introductions reflects an actual influx of new people, as opposed to an influx of activity on the Welcome threads making the threads more visible and inspiring introductions.
If my presentation style is offputting to new people who prefer a different style, I agree that’s unfortunate. I’m not sure that my dealing by changing my style for their benefit—supposing they even benefit from it—is better.
How I WISH LW operated (and realize that 95% of you do not wish this)
I agree that it’s unfortunate that the style of LW posts may drive new users away, especially if they would otherwise enjoy the site and become valuable participants. However, I don’t plan on updating my personal writing style here.
My main reason for this is that I find it unlikely that the wave of introductions reflects an actual influx of new people, as opposed to an influx of activity on the Welcome threads making the threads more visible and inspiring introductions.
I am also unsure if changing my writing style would actually help these newcomers in the long run. Or even if it did, would I prefer a LW that is watered-down, but more accessible? (my interpretation of what you meant by “better”)
I asked about my presentation style because that’s what I wrote about in the first place, and I couldn’t tell whether your response to my comment was actually a response to what I wrote, or some more general response to some more general thing that you decided to treat my comment as a standin for.
I infer from your clarification that i was the latter. I appreciate the clarification.
Your suggested revision of what I said would include several falsehoods, were I to have said it.
Your suggested revision of what I said would include several falsehoods, were I to have said it.
I had to fill in some interpretations of what I thought you could have meant. If what I filled in was false, it is just that I do not know your mind as well as you do. If I did, I could fill in things that were true.
Politeness does not necessarily require falsity. Your post lacked the politeness parts, so I had to fill in politeness parts that I thought sounded like reasonable things you might be thinking. Were you trying to be polite, you could fill in politeness parts with things that were actually true for you (and not just my best guesses.)
I infer from your explanation that your version of politeness does require that I reveal more information than I initially revealed. Can you say more about why?
How do I insult thee? Let me count the ways. I insult thee to the depth and breadth and height My mind can reach, when feeling out of sight For the lack of Reason and the craft of Bayes.
I must confess, I have never actually heard the words ‘gyre’ and ‘falconer’. I assumed they could be pronounced in such a way that it would sound like a rhyme. In my head, they both were pronounced like ‘hear’. Likewise, I assumed one could pronounce ‘world’ and ‘hold’ in such a way that they could sort-of rhyme. In my head, ‘hold’ was pronounced ‘held’ and ‘world’ was pronounced ‘weld.’
Returning to this… if you’re still tempted, I’d love to see your take on it. Feel free to use me as a target if that helps your creativity, though I’m highly unlikely to take anything you say in this mode seriously. (That said, using a hypothetical third party would likely be emotionally easier.)
Unrelatedly: were you the person who had the script that sorts and display’s all of a user’s comments? I’ve changed computers since being handed that pointer and seem to have misplaced the pointer.
Possible. I’m inexperienced in talking with neurotypicals. All I know is what was drilled into me by them, which is basically a bunch of things of the form “don’t ever convey this piece of information because it’s rude” (where the piece of information is like… you have hairy arms, you’re wrong, I don’t like this food, I don’t enjoy spending time with you, this gift was not optimized for making me happy—and the really awful, horrible dark side where they feel pressured never to say certain things to me, like that I’m wrong, they’re annoyed by something I’m doing, I’m ugly, I sound stupid, my writing needs improvement—it’s horrible to deal with people who never say those things because I can never assume sincerity, I just have to assume they’re lying all the time) that upon meeting other neurodiverse I immediately proceeded to forget all about. And so did they. And THAT works out well. It’s accepted within that community that “Crocker’s rules” is how the rest of the world will refer to it.
Anyway, if I’m not allowed to hear the truth without having to listen to whatever insults anyone can come up with, then so be it, I really want to hear the truth and I know it will never be given to me otherwise. But there IS supposed to be something between “you are not allowed to say anything to me except that I’m right about everything and the most wonderful special snowflake ever” and “insult me in every way you can think of”, even if the latter is still preferable to the former. (Is this community a place with a middle ground? If so, I didn’t think such existed. If so, I’ll gladly go by the normal rules of discussion here.)
My experience of LW is that:
the baseline interaction mode would be considered rude-but-not-insulting by most American subcultures, especially neurotypical ones
the interaction mode invoked by “Crocker’s rules” would be considered insulting by most American subcultures, especially neurotypical ones
there’s considerable heterogeneity in terms of what’s considered unacceptably rude
there’s a tentative consensus that dealing with occasional unacceptable rudeness is preferable to the consequences of disallowing occasional unacceptable rudeness, and
the community pushes back on perceived attempts to enforce politeness far more strongly than it pushes back on perceived rudeness.
Dunno if any of that answers your questions.
I would also say that nobody here has come even remotely close to “insult in every conceivable way” as an operating mode.
YES!
There seem to be a lot of new people introducing themselves on the Welcome thread today/yesterday. I would like to encourage everyone to maybe be just a tad bit more polite, and cognizant of the Principle of Charity, at least for the next week or two, so all our newcomers can acclimate to the culture here.
As someone who has only been on this site for a month or two (also as a NT, socially-skilled, female), I have spoken in the past about my difficulties dealing with the harshness here. I ended up deciding not to fight it, since people seem to like it that way, and that’s ok. But I do think the community needs to be aware that this IS in fact an issue that new (especially NT) people are likely to shy away from, and even leave or just not post because of.
tl;dr- I deal with the “rudeness”, but want people to be aware that is does in fact exist. Those of us who dislike it have just learned to keep our mouths shut and deal with it. There are a lot of new people now, so try to soften it for the next week or two.
(Note: I have not been recently down-voted, flamed, or crushed, so this isn’t just me raging.)
I’m unlikely to change my style of presentation here as a consequence of new people arriving, especially since I find it unlikely that the wave of introductions reflects an actual influx of new people, as opposed to an influx of activity on the Welcome threads making the threads more visible and inspiring introductions.
If my presentation style is offputting to new people who prefer a different style, I agree that’s unfortunate. I’m not sure that my dealing by changing my style for their benefit—supposing they even benefit from it—is better.
You are correct, in that I do believe that many of the introductions here are people who have been lurking a long time, but are following the principle of social proof, and just introducing themselves now that everyone else is.
However, I do think that once they have gone through the motions of setting up an account an publishing their introduction, that self-consistency will lead them to continue to be more active on this site; They have just changed their self-image to that of “Member of LW” after all!
Your other supposition- that they might not benefit from it… I will tell you that I have almost quit LW many times in the past month, and it is only a lack of anything better out there that has kept me here.
My assumption is that you are OK with this, and feel that people that can’t handle the heat should get out of the kitchen anyway, so to speak.
I think that is a valid point, IFF you want to maintain LW as it currently stands. I will admit that my preferences are different in that I hope LW grows and gets more and more participants. I also hope that this growth causes LW to be more “inclusive” and have a higher percentage of females (gender stereotyping here, sorry) and NTs, which will in effect lower the harshness of the site.
So I think our disagreement doesn’t stem from “bad” rationality on either of our parts. It’s just that we have different end-goals.
I am going to share with you a trick that is likely to make staying here (or anywhere else with some benefit) easier...
Prismattic’s guaranteed (or your money back) method for dealing with stupid or obnoxious text on the Internet:
Read the problematic material as though it is being performed by Gonzo’s chickens, to the tune of the William Tell Overture.
When this gets boring, you can alternate with reading it as performed by the Swedish chef, to the tune of Ride of the Valkyries.
Really, everything becomes easier to bear when filtered this way. I wish separating out emotional affect was as easy in tense face-to-face situations.
Can you confirm that you’re actually responding to what I wrote?
If so, can you specify what it is about my presentation style that has encouraged you to almost quit?
I’m sorry, I did not want to imply that you specifically made me want to quit. In all honesty, the lack of visual avatars means I can’t keep LW users straight at all.
But since you seem to be asking about your presentation style, here is me re-writing your previous post in a way that is optimized for a conversation I would enjoy, without feeling discomfort.
Original:
How I WISH LW operated (and realize that 95% of you do not wish this)
I asked about my presentation style because that’s what I wrote about in the first place, and I couldn’t tell whether your response to my comment was actually a response to what I wrote, or some more general response to some more general thing that you decided to treat my comment as a standin for.
I infer from your clarification that i was the latter. I appreciate the clarification.
Your suggested revision of what I said would include several falsehoods, were I to have said it.
I had to fill in some interpretations of what I thought you could have meant. If what I filled in was false, it is just that I do not know your mind as well as you do. If I did, I could fill in things that were true.
Politeness does not necessarily require falsity. Your post lacked the politeness parts, so I had to fill in politeness parts that I thought sounded like reasonable things you might be thinking. Were you trying to be polite, you could fill in politeness parts with things that were actually true for you (and not just my best guesses.)
I agree that politeness does not require falsity.
I infer from your explanation that your version of politeness does require that I reveal more information than I initially revealed. Can you say more about why?
I should hope not. I can conceive of more ways to insult than I can type in a day, depending on how we want to count ‘ways’.
How do I insult thee? Let me count the ways.
I insult thee to the depth and breadth and height
My mind can reach, when feeling out of sight
For the lack of Reason and the craft of Bayes.
Turning and turning in the narrowing spiral
The user cannot resist those memes which are viral;
The waterline is lowered; beliefs begin to cool;
Mere tribalism is loosed, upon Lesswrong’s school,
The grey-matter is killed, and everywhere
The knowledge of one’s ignorance is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Heh. I’m not sure why you felt compelled to rhyme there, though; Yeats didn’t.
I must confess, I have never actually heard the words ‘gyre’ and ‘falconer’. I assumed they could be pronounced in such a way that it would sound like a rhyme. In my head, they both were pronounced like ‘hear’. Likewise, I assumed one could pronounce ‘world’ and ‘hold’ in such a way that they could sort-of rhyme. In my head, ‘hold’ was pronounced ‘held’ and ‘world’ was pronounced ‘weld.’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEunVObSnVM
Apparently, this is not the case. Oops.
Although I must admit I was tempted take it up as a novel challenge just to demonstrate how absurd the hyperbole was.
Returning to this… if you’re still tempted, I’d love to see your take on it. Feel free to use me as a target if that helps your creativity, though I’m highly unlikely to take anything you say in this mode seriously. (That said, using a hypothetical third party would likely be emotionally easier.)
Unrelatedly: were you the person who had the script that sorts and display’s all of a user’s comments? I’ve changed computers since being handed that pointer and seem to have misplaced the pointer.
No, that’d be Wei Dai, I think; eg. I recently used http://www.ibiblio.org/weidai/lesswrong_user.php?u=Eliezer_Yudkowsky to point out that Eliezer has more than one negative comment (contra the cult leader accusation).
Hah! Awesome. Thank you!
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