This statement appears to contradict your earlier statements that
a). It’s better to live with the perception-altering symptoms of schizophrenia, than to replace those symptoms with depression and other side-effects,
I want to say I don’t know why you think I made that statement, but I do know, and it’s because you don’t understand what I said. I said that given that those drugs fix the psychosis less than half the time, that almost ten percent of cases spontaneously recover anyway, that the entire rest of the utility function might take overwhelming amounts of disutility from side-effects including permanent disfiguring tics, a type of unfixable restlessness that isn’t helped by fidgeting and usually causes great suffering, greater risk of diseases, lack of caring about anything, mental fog (which will definitely impair your ability to find the truth), and psychosis (not even kidding, that’s one of the side-effects of antipsychotics), and given that it can lead to a curtailing of one’s civil liberties to be diagnosed, it might not be worth it. Look, there’s this moral theory called utilitarianism where you can have one bad thing happen and still think it’s worth it because the alternative is worse, and it doesn’t just have to work for morals. It works for anything; you can’t just say “X is bad, fix X at all cost”. You have to be sure it’s not actually the best state of affairs first. Something can be both appalling and the best possible choice, and my utility function isn’t as simple as you seem to think it is. I think there are things of value besides just having perfectly clear perception.
Our descendants likely won’t have access to EY’s original texts, but to Swahili translations from garbled Chinese transcriptions, or something;
This is the internet. Nothing anyone says on the internet is ever going away, even if some of us really wish it could. /nitpick
b). You determine the nature of every “gut feeling” (i.e., whether it is divine or internal) by using multiple criteria, one of which is, “would I be better off as a person if this feeling was, in fact, divine”.
I really want to throw up my hands here and say “but I’ve explained this MULTIPLE TIMES, you are BEING AN IDIOT” but I remember the illusion of transparency. And that you haven’t understood. And that you didn’t make a deliberate decision to annoy me. But I’m still annoyed. I STILL want to call you an idiot, even though I know I haven’t phrased something correctly and I should explain again. That doesn’t even sound like what I believe or what I (thought I) said. (Maybe that’s how it came out. Ugh.)
Why is communication so difficult? Why doesn’t knowing that someone’s not doing it on purpose matter? It’s the sort of thing that you’d think would actually affect my feelings.
This is the internet. Nothing anyone says on the internet is ever going away, even if some of us really wish it could. /nitpick
You would be surprised… If it weren’t for the internet archive much information would have already been lost. Some modern websites are starting to use web design techniques (ajax-loaded content) that break such archive services.
I really want to throw up my hands here and say “but I’ve explained this MULTIPLE TIMES, you are BEING AN IDIOT” but I remember the illusion of transparency.
One option would be to reply with a pointer to your previous comment.
I see you’ve used the link syntax within a comment—this web site supports permalinks to comments as well.
At least you wouldn’t be forced to repeat yourself.
But since I obviously explained it wrong, what good does it do to remind him of where I explained it? I’ve used the wrong words, I need to find new ones. Ugh.
Best wishes. Was your previous explanation earlier in your interchange with Bugmaster?
If so, I agree that Bugmaster would have read your explanation, and that pointing to it
wouldn’t help (I sympathize). If, however, your previous explanation was in response to
another lesswrongian, it is possible that Bugmaster missed it, in which case a pointer might
help. I’ve been following your comments, but I’m sure I’ve missed some of them.
(I just came back from vacation, sorry for the late reply, and happy New Year ! Also, Merry Christmas if you are so inclined :-) )
Firstly, I operate by Crocker’s Rules, so you can call me anything you want and I won’t mind.
It works for anything; you can’t just say “X is bad, fix X at all cost”. You have to be sure it’s not actually the best state of affairs first.
I agree with you completely regarding utilitarianism (although in this case we’re not talking about the moral theory, just the approach in general). All I was saying is that IMO the utility one places on believing things that are likely to be actually true should, IMO, be extremely high—and possibly higher than the utility you assign to this feature. But “extremely high” does not mean “infinite”, of course, and it’s entirely possible that, in some cases, the disutility from all the side-effects will not be worth the utility gain—especially if the side-effects are preventing you from believing true things anyway (f.ex. “mental fog”, psychosis, depression, etc.).
That said, if I personally was seeing visions or hearing voices, I would be willing (assuming I remained reasonably rational, of course) to risk a very large disutility even for a less than 50% chance of fixing the problem. If I can’t trust my senses (or, indeed, my thoughts), then my ability to correctly evaluate my utility is greatly diminished. I could be thinking that everything is just great, while in reality I was hurting myself or others, and I’d be none the wiser. Of course, I could also be just great in reality, as well; but given the way this universe works, this is unlikely.
This is the internet. Nothing anyone says on the internet is ever going away, even if some of us really wish it could.
Data on the Internet is less permanent than many people think, IMO, but this is probably beside the point; I was making an analogy to the Bible, which was written in the days before the Internet, but (sadly) after the days of giant stone steles. Besides, the way things are going, it’s not out of the question that future versions of the Internet would all be written in Chinese...
Why is communication so difficult? Why doesn’t knowing that someone’s not doing it on purpose matter?
I think this is because you possess religious faith, which I have never experienced, and thus I am unable to evaluate what you say in the same frame of reference. Or it could be because I’m just obtuse. Or a bit of both.
Besides, the way things are going, it’s not out of the question that future versions of the Internet would all be written in Chinese...
I don’t think so. The popularity of the English language has gained momentum such that even if its original causes (the economic status of the US) ceased, it would go on for quite a while. Chinese hasn’t. See http://www.andaman.org/BOOK/reprints/weber/rep-weber.htm (It was written a decade and a half ago, but I don’t think the situation is significantly qualitatively different for English and Chinese in ways which couldn’t have been predicted back then.) I think English is going to remain the main international language for at least 30 more years, unless some major catastrophe occurs (where by major I mean ‘killing at least 5% of the world human population’).
I want to say I don’t know why you think I made that statement, but I do know, and it’s because you don’t understand what I said. I said that given that those drugs fix the psychosis less than half the time, that almost ten percent of cases spontaneously recover anyway, that the entire rest of the utility function might take overwhelming amounts of disutility from side-effects including permanent disfiguring tics, a type of unfixable restlessness that isn’t helped by fidgeting and usually causes great suffering, greater risk of diseases, lack of caring about anything, mental fog (which will definitely impair your ability to find the truth), and psychosis (not even kidding, that’s one of the side-effects of antipsychotics), and given that it can lead to a curtailing of one’s civil liberties to be diagnosed, it might not be worth it. Look, there’s this moral theory called utilitarianism where you can have one bad thing happen and still think it’s worth it because the alternative is worse, and it doesn’t just have to work for morals. It works for anything; you can’t just say “X is bad, fix X at all cost”. You have to be sure it’s not actually the best state of affairs first. Something can be both appalling and the best possible choice, and my utility function isn’t as simple as you seem to think it is. I think there are things of value besides just having perfectly clear perception.
This is the internet. Nothing anyone says on the internet is ever going away, even if some of us really wish it could. /nitpick
I really want to throw up my hands here and say “but I’ve explained this MULTIPLE TIMES, you are BEING AN IDIOT” but I remember the illusion of transparency. And that you haven’t understood. And that you didn’t make a deliberate decision to annoy me. But I’m still annoyed. I STILL want to call you an idiot, even though I know I haven’t phrased something correctly and I should explain again. That doesn’t even sound like what I believe or what I (thought I) said. (Maybe that’s how it came out. Ugh.)
Why is communication so difficult? Why doesn’t knowing that someone’s not doing it on purpose matter? It’s the sort of thing that you’d think would actually affect my feelings.
You would be surprised… If it weren’t for the internet archive much information would have already been lost. Some modern websites are starting to use web design techniques (ajax-loaded content) that break such archive services.
One option would be to reply with a pointer to your previous comment. I see you’ve used the link syntax within a comment—this web site supports permalinks to comments as well. At least you wouldn’t be forced to repeat yourself.
But since I obviously explained it wrong, what good does it do to remind him of where I explained it? I’ve used the wrong words, I need to find new ones. Ugh.
Best wishes. Was your previous explanation earlier in your interchange with Bugmaster? If so, I agree that Bugmaster would have read your explanation, and that pointing to it wouldn’t help (I sympathize). If, however, your previous explanation was in response to another lesswrongian, it is possible that Bugmaster missed it, in which case a pointer might help. I’ve been following your comments, but I’m sure I’ve missed some of them.
Or, perhaps, a link and a clarification.
It’s conceivable that English could drift enough that EY’s meaning would be unclear even if the texts remain.
(I just came back from vacation, sorry for the late reply, and happy New Year ! Also, Merry Christmas if you are so inclined :-) )
Firstly, I operate by Crocker’s Rules, so you can call me anything you want and I won’t mind.
I agree with you completely regarding utilitarianism (although in this case we’re not talking about the moral theory, just the approach in general). All I was saying is that IMO the utility one places on believing things that are likely to be actually true should, IMO, be extremely high—and possibly higher than the utility you assign to this feature. But “extremely high” does not mean “infinite”, of course, and it’s entirely possible that, in some cases, the disutility from all the side-effects will not be worth the utility gain—especially if the side-effects are preventing you from believing true things anyway (f.ex. “mental fog”, psychosis, depression, etc.).
That said, if I personally was seeing visions or hearing voices, I would be willing (assuming I remained reasonably rational, of course) to risk a very large disutility even for a less than 50% chance of fixing the problem. If I can’t trust my senses (or, indeed, my thoughts), then my ability to correctly evaluate my utility is greatly diminished. I could be thinking that everything is just great, while in reality I was hurting myself or others, and I’d be none the wiser. Of course, I could also be just great in reality, as well; but given the way this universe works, this is unlikely.
Data on the Internet is less permanent than many people think, IMO, but this is probably beside the point; I was making an analogy to the Bible, which was written in the days before the Internet, but (sadly) after the days of giant stone steles. Besides, the way things are going, it’s not out of the question that future versions of the Internet would all be written in Chinese...
I think this is because you possess religious faith, which I have never experienced, and thus I am unable to evaluate what you say in the same frame of reference. Or it could be because I’m just obtuse. Or a bit of both.
I don’t think so. The popularity of the English language has gained momentum such that even if its original causes (the economic status of the US) ceased, it would go on for quite a while. Chinese hasn’t. See http://www.andaman.org/BOOK/reprints/weber/rep-weber.htm (It was written a decade and a half ago, but I don’t think the situation is significantly qualitatively different for English and Chinese in ways which couldn’t have been predicted back then.) I think English is going to remain the main international language for at least 30 more years, unless some major catastrophe occurs (where by major I mean ‘killing at least 5% of the world human population’).