I’m here because of SoullessAutomaton, who is my apartment-mate and long term friend. I am interested in discussing rhetoric and rationality. I have a few questions that I would pose to the group to open up the topic.
1) Are people interested in rhetoric, persuasion, and the systematic study thereof? Does anyone want a primer? (My PhD is in the History and Theory of Rhetoric, so I could develop such a primer.)
2) What would a rationalist rhetoric look like?
3) What would be the goals / theory / overarching observations that would be the drivers behind a rationalist rhetoric?
4) Would a rationalist rhetoric be more ethical than current rhetorics, and if so, why?
5) Can rhetoric ever be fully rational and rationalized, or is the study of how people are persuaded inevitably or inherently a-rational or anti-rational (I would say that rhetoric can be rationalized, but I know too many scholars who would disagree with me here, either explicitly or implicitly)?
6) Question to the group: to what degree might unfamiliar terminology derived from prior discussions here and in the sister-blog be functioning as an unintentional gatekeeper? Corollary question: to what degree is the common knowledge of math and sciences—and the relevant jargon terms thereof—functioning as a gatekeeper? (As an older woman, I was forbidden from pursuing my best skill—math—because women “didn’t study math”. I am finding that I have to dig pretty deeply into Wikipedia and elsewhere to make sure I’m following the conversation—that or I have to pester SoullessAutomaton with questions that I should not have to ask. sigh)
I rather like Eliezer’s description of ethical writing given in rule six here. I’m honestly not sure why he doesn’t seem to link it anymore.
Ethical writing is not “persuading the audience”. Ethical writing is not “persuading the audience of things I myself believe to be true”. Ethical writing is not even “persuading the audience of things I believe to be true through arguments I believe to be true”. Ethical writing is persuading the audience of things you believe to be true, through arguments that you yourself take into account as evidence. It’s not good enough for the audience unless it’s good enough for you.
That’s what I was going to reply with. To begin with, a rationalist style of rethoric should force you to write/speak like that, or make it easy for the audience to tell whether or not you do.
(Rationalist rethoric can mean at least three things: ways of communication you adopt in order to be able to deliver your message as rationally and honestly as possible, not in order to persuade; techniques that persuade rationalists particularly well; or new forms of dark arts discovered by rationalists)
(We should distinguish between forms of rhetoric that optimize for persuasion and those that optimize for truth. Eliezer’s proposed “ethical writing” seems to optimize for truth. That is, if everyone wrote like that, we would find out more truths and lying would be harder, or even persuading people of untruths. Though it’s also awfully persuasive… On the other hand, political rhetoric probably optimizes for persuasion, in so far as it involves knowingly persuading people of lies and bad policies.)
2) I suspect that the study of rhetoric is already fairly rationalist, in the sense of rationality being about winning. Rhetoric seems to be the disciplined/rational study of how to deliver persuasive arguments. I suspect many aspiring rationalists attempt to inoculate themselves against the techniques of rhetoric because they desire to believe what is true rather than what is most convincingly argued. A rationalist rhetoric might then be a rhetoric which does not trigger the rationalist cognitive immune system and thus is more effective at persuading rationalists.
3) From my point of view the only goal is success—winning the argument. Everything else is an empirical question.
4) Not necessarily. Since rationalists attempt to protect themselves against well-sounding but false arguments, rationalist rhetoric might focus more on avoiding misleading or logically flawed arguments but only as a means to an end. The goal is still to win the argument, not to be more ethical. To the extent that signaling a desire to be ethical helps win the argument, a rationalist rhetoric might do well to actually pre-commit to being ethical if it could do so believably.
5) I think the study of rhetoric can absolutely be rational—it is after all about winning. The rational study of how people are irrational is not itself irrational.
6) My feeling is that the answer is ‘to a significant degree’ but it’s a bit of an open question.
Handle: thoughtdancer
Name: Deb
Location: Middle of nowhere, Michigan
Age: 44
Gender: Female
Education: PhD Rhetoric
Occupation: Writer-wannabe, adjunct Prof (formerly tenure-track, didn’t like it)
Blog: thoughtdances Just starting, be gentle please
I’m here because of SoullessAutomaton, who is my apartment-mate and long term friend. I am interested in discussing rhetoric and rationality. I have a few questions that I would pose to the group to open up the topic.
1) Are people interested in rhetoric, persuasion, and the systematic study thereof? Does anyone want a primer? (My PhD is in the History and Theory of Rhetoric, so I could develop such a primer.)
2) What would a rationalist rhetoric look like?
3) What would be the goals / theory / overarching observations that would be the drivers behind a rationalist rhetoric?
4) Would a rationalist rhetoric be more ethical than current rhetorics, and if so, why?
5) Can rhetoric ever be fully rational and rationalized, or is the study of how people are persuaded inevitably or inherently a-rational or anti-rational (I would say that rhetoric can be rationalized, but I know too many scholars who would disagree with me here, either explicitly or implicitly)?
6) Question to the group: to what degree might unfamiliar terminology derived from prior discussions here and in the sister-blog be functioning as an unintentional gatekeeper? Corollary question: to what degree is the common knowledge of math and sciences—and the relevant jargon terms thereof—functioning as a gatekeeper? (As an older woman, I was forbidden from pursuing my best skill—math—because women “didn’t study math”. I am finding that I have to dig pretty deeply into Wikipedia and elsewhere to make sure I’m following the conversation—that or I have to pester SoullessAutomaton with questions that I should not have to ask. sigh)
I rather like Eliezer’s description of ethical writing given in rule six here. I’m honestly not sure why he doesn’t seem to link it anymore.
That’s what I was going to reply with. To begin with, a rationalist style of rethoric should force you to write/speak like that, or make it easy for the audience to tell whether or not you do.
(Rationalist rethoric can mean at least three things: ways of communication you adopt in order to be able to deliver your message as rationally and honestly as possible, not in order to persuade; techniques that persuade rationalists particularly well; or new forms of dark arts discovered by rationalists)
(We should distinguish between forms of rhetoric that optimize for persuasion and those that optimize for truth. Eliezer’s proposed “ethical writing” seems to optimize for truth. That is, if everyone wrote like that, we would find out more truths and lying would be harder, or even persuading people of untruths. Though it’s also awfully persuasive… On the other hand, political rhetoric probably optimizes for persuasion, in so far as it involves knowingly persuading people of lies and bad policies.)
1) Yes, I’m interested.
2) I suspect that the study of rhetoric is already fairly rationalist, in the sense of rationality being about winning. Rhetoric seems to be the disciplined/rational study of how to deliver persuasive arguments. I suspect many aspiring rationalists attempt to inoculate themselves against the techniques of rhetoric because they desire to believe what is true rather than what is most convincingly argued. A rationalist rhetoric might then be a rhetoric which does not trigger the rationalist cognitive immune system and thus is more effective at persuading rationalists.
3) From my point of view the only goal is success—winning the argument. Everything else is an empirical question.
4) Not necessarily. Since rationalists attempt to protect themselves against well-sounding but false arguments, rationalist rhetoric might focus more on avoiding misleading or logically flawed arguments but only as a means to an end. The goal is still to win the argument, not to be more ethical. To the extent that signaling a desire to be ethical helps win the argument, a rationalist rhetoric might do well to actually pre-commit to being ethical if it could do so believably.
5) I think the study of rhetoric can absolutely be rational—it is after all about winning. The rational study of how people are irrational is not itself irrational.
6) My feeling is that the answer is ‘to a significant degree’ but it’s a bit of an open question.