Unless by “godly” you mean “fanatical extremists who approve of terrorism and/or fail to understand why theocracies only work in theory and not in practice”.
Understood. When most Christian say things like, “I wish our elected official were more godly”, they usually mean, “I really wish we lived in a Christian theocracy”, but I see now that you’re not one of these people. In this case, would you vote for an atheist and thus against a Christian, if you thought that the atheist candidate’s policies were more beneficial to society than his Christian rival’s ?
Yes, but they’re wrong.
Funny, that’s what they say about you...
We can test what they claim is true.
This is an excellent idea, but it’s not always practical; otherwise, most people would be following the same religion by now. For example, you mentioned that you don’t want to wear uncomfortable clothing or be separated from your male friend (to use some of the milder examples). Some Muslims, however (as well as some Christians), believe that doing these things is not merely a bad idea, but a mortal sin, a direct affront to their god (who, according to them, is the one true god), which condemns the sinner to a fiery hell after death. How would you test whether this claim was true or not ?
Of course, the government could mandate atheism
Even though I’m an atheist, I believe this would be a terrible idea.
When it works, it really works. You’ll find no disagreement from anyone with a modicum of sense.
Well, this all depends on what you believe in. For example, some theists believe (or at least claim to believe) that certain actions—such as wearing the wrong kind of clothes, or marrying the wrong kinds of people, etc. -- are mortal sins that provoke God’s wrath. And when God’s wrath is made manifest, it affects the entire nation, not just the individual sinners (there are plenty of Bible verses that seem to be saying the same thing).
If this belief is true, then stopping people from wearing sinful clothing or marrying in a sinful way or whatever is not merely a sensible thing to do, but pretty much a moral imperative. This is why (as far as I understand) some Christians are trying to turn our government into a Christian theocracy: they genuinely believe that it is their moral duty to do so. Since their beliefs are ultimately based on faith, they are not open to persuasion; and this is why I personally love the idea of a secular government.
In this case, would you vote for an atheist and thus against a Christian, if you thought that the atheist candidate’s policies were more beneficial to society than his Christian rival’s ?
Possibly. Depends on how much better, how I expected both candidates’ policies to change and how electable I considered them both.
For example, you mentioned that you don’t want to wear uncomfortable clothing or be separated from your male friend (to use some of the milder examples). Some Muslims, however (as well as some Christians), believe that doing these things is not merely a bad idea, but a mortal sin, a direct affront to their god (who, according to them, is the one true god), which condemns the sinner to a fiery hell after death. How would you test whether this claim was true or not ?
I wouldn’t. But I would test accompanying claims. For this particular example, I can’t rule out the possibility of ending up getting sent to hell for this until I die. However, having heard what supporters of those policies say, I know that most Muslims who support this sort of idea of modest clothing claim that it causes women to be more respected, causes men exposed only to this kind of woman to be less lustful and some even claim it lowers the prevalence of rape. As I receive an optimal level of respect at the moment, I find the first claim implausible. Men in countries where it happens are more sexually frustrated and more likely to end up blowing themselves up. Countries imposing these sorts of standards harm women even more than they harm men. So that’s implausible. And rape occurs less in cultures with more unsexualized nudity, which would indicate only a modest protective effect or none at all, or could even indicate that more covering up causes more rape.
It’s not 100% out of the question that the universe has an evil god who orders people to do stupid things for his own amusement.
Funny, that’s what they say about you...
I say you’re wrong about atheism, but you don’t consider that strong evidence in favor of Christianity.
For example, some theists believe (or at least claim to believe) that certain actions—such as wearing the wrong kind of clothes, or marrying the wrong kinds of people, etc. -- are mortal sins that provoke God’s wrath. And when God’s wrath is made manifest, it affects the entire nation, not just the individual sinners (there are plenty of Bible verses that seem to be saying the same thing).
Possibly. Depends on how much better, how I expected both candidates’ policies to change and how electable I considered them both.
That’s perfectly reasonable, but see my comments below.
For this particular example, I can’t rule out the possibility of ending up getting sent to hell for this until I die. However, having heard what supporters of those policies say, I know that most Muslims who support this sort of idea of modest clothing claim that it causes women to be more respected...
Ok, so you’ve listed a bunch of empirically verifiable criteria, and evaluated them. This approach makes sense to me… but… it sounds to me like you’re making your political (“atheist politician vs. Christian politician”) and moral (“should I wear a burqa”) choices based primarily (or perhaps even entirely) on secular reasoning. You would support the politician who will implement the best policies (and who stands a chance of being elected at all), regardless of his religion; and you would oppose social polices that demonstrably make people unhappy—in this life, not the next. So, where does “godliness” come in ?
It’s not 100% out of the question that the universe has an evil god who orders people to do stupid things for his own amusement.
I agree, but then, I don’t have faith to inform me of any competing gods’ existence. I imagine that if I had faith in a non-evil Christian god, who is also the only god, I’d peg the probability of the evil god’s existence at exactly 0%. But it’s possible that I’m misunderstanding what faith feels like “from the inside”.
Understood. When most Christian say things like, “I wish our elected official were more godly”, they usually mean, “I really wish we lived in a Christian theocracy”, but I see now that you’re not one of these people. In this case, would you vote for an atheist and thus against a Christian, if you thought that the atheist candidate’s policies were more beneficial to society than his Christian rival’s ?
Funny, that’s what they say about you...
This is an excellent idea, but it’s not always practical; otherwise, most people would be following the same religion by now. For example, you mentioned that you don’t want to wear uncomfortable clothing or be separated from your male friend (to use some of the milder examples). Some Muslims, however (as well as some Christians), believe that doing these things is not merely a bad idea, but a mortal sin, a direct affront to their god (who, according to them, is the one true god), which condemns the sinner to a fiery hell after death. How would you test whether this claim was true or not ?
Even though I’m an atheist, I believe this would be a terrible idea.
Well, this all depends on what you believe in. For example, some theists believe (or at least claim to believe) that certain actions—such as wearing the wrong kind of clothes, or marrying the wrong kinds of people, etc. -- are mortal sins that provoke God’s wrath. And when God’s wrath is made manifest, it affects the entire nation, not just the individual sinners (there are plenty of Bible verses that seem to be saying the same thing).
If this belief is true, then stopping people from wearing sinful clothing or marrying in a sinful way or whatever is not merely a sensible thing to do, but pretty much a moral imperative. This is why (as far as I understand) some Christians are trying to turn our government into a Christian theocracy: they genuinely believe that it is their moral duty to do so. Since their beliefs are ultimately based on faith, they are not open to persuasion; and this is why I personally love the idea of a secular government.
Possibly. Depends on how much better, how I expected both candidates’ policies to change and how electable I considered them both.
I wouldn’t. But I would test accompanying claims. For this particular example, I can’t rule out the possibility of ending up getting sent to hell for this until I die. However, having heard what supporters of those policies say, I know that most Muslims who support this sort of idea of modest clothing claim that it causes women to be more respected, causes men exposed only to this kind of woman to be less lustful and some even claim it lowers the prevalence of rape. As I receive an optimal level of respect at the moment, I find the first claim implausible. Men in countries where it happens are more sexually frustrated and more likely to end up blowing themselves up. Countries imposing these sorts of standards harm women even more than they harm men. So that’s implausible. And rape occurs less in cultures with more unsexualized nudity, which would indicate only a modest protective effect or none at all, or could even indicate that more covering up causes more rape.
It’s not 100% out of the question that the universe has an evil god who orders people to do stupid things for his own amusement.
I say you’re wrong about atheism, but you don’t consider that strong evidence in favor of Christianity.
Ah. I see. Sounds plausible… ish… sort of.
That’s perfectly reasonable, but see my comments below.
Ok, so you’ve listed a bunch of empirically verifiable criteria, and evaluated them. This approach makes sense to me… but… it sounds to me like you’re making your political (“atheist politician vs. Christian politician”) and moral (“should I wear a burqa”) choices based primarily (or perhaps even entirely) on secular reasoning. You would support the politician who will implement the best policies (and who stands a chance of being elected at all), regardless of his religion; and you would oppose social polices that demonstrably make people unhappy—in this life, not the next. So, where does “godliness” come in ?
I agree, but then, I don’t have faith to inform me of any competing gods’ existence. I imagine that if I had faith in a non-evil Christian god, who is also the only god, I’d peg the probability of the evil god’s existence at exactly 0%. But it’s possible that I’m misunderstanding what faith feels like “from the inside”.
Uh oh. :-)