Your distinction between “existence” and “being” seems … idiosyncratic, and it seems to me that you should probably split your “definition 1” into definitions 1a (not dependent on a mind/observer for existence) and 1b (not dependent on a mind/observer for being). In so far as I understand the distinction you are making (which may not be far enough) it seems to me that nothing is objective-1a by definition (because you take “existence” to be a property of people’s ideas) but some things might be objective-1b. I don’t think anyone means objective-2 when they say “objective”, and I think your insistence that they do is just a mistake.
I think the way the mistake arises is that, given other assumptions you make, what other people mean by “objective” is crazy, and so it feels to you as if saying they mean objective-2 is being charitable, replacing a crazy notion with one that’s wrong but at least makes sense. Whereas, to those who make different assumptions, what you’re doing looks highly uncharitable, replacing a perfectly reasonable notion with one that’s wrong. (This is a very common phenomenon.)
Specifically, of course the assumption you make and they don’t is something along the lines of “all talk of ‘reality’ and ‘the external world’ as something separate from our experience is nonsense”. I’m sure it’s true that nothing is objective given solipsism, but I find it difficult to care because I find solipsism unconvincing, your version (sorry!) as much so as any other.
(I expect you don’t like having your position called solipsism. I’m going to call it that anyway. Sorry.)
Also, even given solipsism, I think your definition of “objective” makes it a useless word: by definition, nothing is “objective”. I—like you—generally prefer to avoid the word, precisely because different people mean different things by it and it causes confusion; but I do think there’s a useful concept somewhere in its vicinity; there really is a useful distinction between physics and (hypothetical) highly-intersubjectively-consistent art, and that distinction has something to do with what people commonly mean by “objective”. An analogy (borrowing on a nice little essay by David Chalmers from when “The Matrix” first came out): suppose it turns out that we are all brains in vats, living in a painstakingly constructed simulated world; then it is still true, in a useful sense, that black swans are real and unicorns aren’t, even though in another sense “nothing inside the simulation is real”. If we-in-the-Matrix explore our world very thoroughly, we will find black swans but we will never find unicorns. Similarly: it’s not just that physics is agreed on by (in some sense) everyone; it’s also that it seems clear that it would be agreed on by aliens, AIs, archangels, etc., whereas we should expect those beings to have quite different taste in art from ours, and this points to an important difference between physics and art, and the word “objective” isn’t such a bad word for it, even if in some sense “nothing is objective”.
(Relatedly: even though we only know about “reality” via our experiences, I claim that there is a useful distinction between the things I am seeing right now and the things I might see if I were on a large dose of hallucinogens, and words like “real” and “objective” are useful ways to point at that distinction. This isn’t really any different from e.g. saying “the monster is behind the building” when talking about a computer game, even though “really” the monster and building are both being displayed on the same flat surface.)
I think, based on this reply, you basically get my point, we’re just quibbling about some details.
I take this sort of hard line stance on “objective” because surprisingly many people, when pressed, turn out to be naive realists, including a whole bunch of rationalists I’ve interacted with over the years. So if I seem maximally uncharitable it’s because there’s a bunch of folks out there who are failing to grasp the point I make in this point under any terms.
Your distinction between “existence” and “being” seems … idiosyncratic, and it seems to me that you should probably split your “definition 1” into definitions 1a (not dependent on a mind/observer for existence) and 1b (not dependent on a mind/observer for being). In so far as I understand the distinction you are making (which may not be far enough) it seems to me that nothing is objective-1a by definition (because you take “existence” to be a property of people’s ideas) but some things might be objective-1b. I don’t think anyone means objective-2 when they say “objective”, and I think your insistence that they do is just a mistake.
I think the way the mistake arises is that, given other assumptions you make, what other people mean by “objective” is crazy, and so it feels to you as if saying they mean objective-2 is being charitable, replacing a crazy notion with one that’s wrong but at least makes sense. Whereas, to those who make different assumptions, what you’re doing looks highly uncharitable, replacing a perfectly reasonable notion with one that’s wrong. (This is a very common phenomenon.)
Specifically, of course the assumption you make and they don’t is something along the lines of “all talk of ‘reality’ and ‘the external world’ as something separate from our experience is nonsense”. I’m sure it’s true that nothing is objective given solipsism, but I find it difficult to care because I find solipsism unconvincing, your version (sorry!) as much so as any other.
(I expect you don’t like having your position called solipsism. I’m going to call it that anyway. Sorry.)
Also, even given solipsism, I think your definition of “objective” makes it a useless word: by definition, nothing is “objective”. I—like you—generally prefer to avoid the word, precisely because different people mean different things by it and it causes confusion; but I do think there’s a useful concept somewhere in its vicinity; there really is a useful distinction between physics and (hypothetical) highly-intersubjectively-consistent art, and that distinction has something to do with what people commonly mean by “objective”. An analogy (borrowing on a nice little essay by David Chalmers from when “The Matrix” first came out): suppose it turns out that we are all brains in vats, living in a painstakingly constructed simulated world; then it is still true, in a useful sense, that black swans are real and unicorns aren’t, even though in another sense “nothing inside the simulation is real”. If we-in-the-Matrix explore our world very thoroughly, we will find black swans but we will never find unicorns. Similarly: it’s not just that physics is agreed on by (in some sense) everyone; it’s also that it seems clear that it would be agreed on by aliens, AIs, archangels, etc., whereas we should expect those beings to have quite different taste in art from ours, and this points to an important difference between physics and art, and the word “objective” isn’t such a bad word for it, even if in some sense “nothing is objective”.
(Relatedly: even though we only know about “reality” via our experiences, I claim that there is a useful distinction between the things I am seeing right now and the things I might see if I were on a large dose of hallucinogens, and words like “real” and “objective” are useful ways to point at that distinction. This isn’t really any different from e.g. saying “the monster is behind the building” when talking about a computer game, even though “really” the monster and building are both being displayed on the same flat surface.)
I think, based on this reply, you basically get my point, we’re just quibbling about some details.
I take this sort of hard line stance on “objective” because surprisingly many people, when pressed, turn out to be naive realists, including a whole bunch of rationalists I’ve interacted with over the years. So if I seem maximally uncharitable it’s because there’s a bunch of folks out there who are failing to grasp the point I make in this point under any terms.