e.g. “practically how do you explore alcohol in a way that isn’t dangerous”)
Yeah, that’s the sort of thing that could be useful. I still have never tried alcohol. I know in theory it would be fine when used responsibly and in moderation, but lack of knowledge/deep conditioning are hard to overcome. I could go to a bar, but I wouldn’t even know the approximate ‘strength’ of various types of drinks or how fast alcohol takes effect/wears off/how soon it would be safe to drive again. Not to mention I don’t have any idea how sensitive I am personally to alcohol, so I wouldn’t go try a drink without a trusted friend with me to stop me from doing anything really stupid.
explicitly avoiding a permanent state of having an “ex-mormon” identity, which strikes me as healthy
Yeah, I agree. I avoid dedicated ex-mormon communities. In my answer to Joseph_C I said:
”...r/exmormon is quite a bad environment IMHO. While there are some nice and reasonable folks, they seem to be either a minority or simply less vocal than those who are not. A significant portion of those who frequent exmo-specific groups (or at least post often) tend to be those who are angry and bitter. As far as I can tell some of them still blame the church for everything bad in their life even decades after leaving. Those with a more healthy outlook tend to move on and find better things to do.”
NB: I have a casual interest in high-demand religions, but have never been a part of one (with the arguable exception of the rationality/EA community).
From what I can tell, the rationality/EA community is lacking many ‘tells’ that tend to be present in high demand religions. For example:
There’s no taboo against criticizing leadership
There’s no intrusive way to extort monetary contributions (occasional requests for donations are a lot less intrusive than “pay your tithing or lose out on privileges/go on guilt trip”
Ideas are just ideas, not some unified one-size-fits-all this-is-how-to-live-your-life-or-consequences (social or otherwise).
If you want to experiment with alcohol, I would recommend trying it at home, with a trusted friend. Less social pressure, more pleasant environment, no need to solve the logistics of driving home, no problem if you e.g. start vomiting.
Decide in advance how much you want to try. Do not change your decision after you started drinking. For example, if you choose that today you want to try one glass of wine, do that, but if after drinking the first glass you decide that it was okay and you can try another… don’t! (Ask your friend to help you keep your commitments, and evaluate their reliability based on if they actually do that.) The reason is that if you actually happen to be not okay, then you reasoning is untrustworthy. Sometimes, the more drunk people get, the more loudly they insist they are sober. (This is not a general rule, for example I am quite aware how drunk I am, but… I have seen other people do exactly this, and they just can’t be convinced.)
Keep some records for your future self? Ask your friend to record you doing some tasks, such as walking along a straight line, juggling, singing, explaining a math problem, doing some introspection about how you feel. So that you can compare how you felt at the moment, vs how it seemed from outside. (Sometimes people feel very creative or smart when they are drunk, but to those around them they are not.)
Do not drink too late in the evening; give yourself some time to get sober before you go to bed, maybe at least three hours. I don’t have a car, so I don’t know how much time it takes after drinking to be able to drive; I think 24 hours should be safe.
Alcohol strength from low to high:
American beer
non-American beer
wine
distillates (vodka)
Your reaction to alcohol probably depends on the kind of alcohol, on its amount, on your genetics, and on your previous exposure (exposure increases tolerance, but it you become a heavy drinker, it might also decrease it). As an American with no previous exposure, perhaps start with the American beer.
(My guess would be that the amount that obviously does something noticeable to you, but doesn’t result in anything bad, could be 1 bottle of beer, 2 deciliters of wine, or 1⁄2 deciliter of vodka.)
Many alcoholic drinks are basically a mix of a distillate, water, and flavor. So their strength depends on the amount of alcohol, which can range from very low to very high. You can’t guess the strength by the taste, because the taste mostly depends on the non-alcoholic parts of the drink. For example a mix of vodka and the right kind/amount of fruit juice can result in a drink that tastes completely innocent and will knock you out before you even realize you were drinking something alcoholic.
Keep some water or other non-alcoholic drink at hand, so you won’t drink more alcohol merely because you got thirsty (and too lazy/drunk to walk to the nearest water source).
It is generally recommended not to drink different types of alcohol at the same event. Not sure why, but it is one of those “it is known” things that most people follow. (My guess is that drinking different kinds of alcohol makes it more difficult to track intuitively how much you had? Like, a bottle of wine sounds like too much, but if you had a bottle of beer and a glass of wine and a little glass of vodka, then is still kinda sounds safe… or maybe it is not… and you do not have the mental capacity to figure it out at the moment.)
It takes maybe 5-30 minutes after drinking for the effect to appear at full strength. The effect is stronger on empty stomach; weaker if you eat e.g. bacon before drinking vodka. Physically demanding activity, such as dancing, helps metabolize the alcohol faster. (If you drink alcohol and do a physically demanding activity, remember to also drink enough water.)
Different people react differently to alcohol. Some get aggressive, others get cuddly; some feel full of energy, others feel sleepy; some forget what happened, others remember everything perfectly. Some get addicted, others don’t, not sure what makes the difference. Alcohol addiction is really bad!
As usual with drugs, most people who volunteer the advice are the ones you should not listen to (yes, I am aware of the irony), because obviously the ones with most experience are the addicts, and you do not want to do the things they consider okay. Also, people are fucking hypocrites about the drugs they like vs don’t like, mostly based on peer pressure; for example most rationalists consider drinking alcohol stupid and low-status… and then they overdose on some drug that happened to be popular in the Bay Area, because someone told them it was high-status and expanding their intellectual experience or whatever. I prefer alcohol, but I can also go for months without it, so I guess I am okay.
Yeah, that’s the sort of thing that could be useful. I still have never tried alcohol. I know in theory it would be fine when used responsibly and in moderation, but lack of knowledge/deep conditioning are hard to overcome. I could go to a bar, but I wouldn’t even know the approximate ‘strength’ of various types of drinks or how fast alcohol takes effect/wears off/how soon it would be safe to drive again.
Not to mention I don’t have any idea how sensitive I am personally to alcohol, so I wouldn’t go try a drink without a trusted friend with me to stop me from doing anything really stupid.
Yeah, I agree. I avoid dedicated ex-mormon communities. In my answer to Joseph_C I said:
”...r/exmormon is quite a bad environment IMHO. While there are some nice and reasonable folks, they seem to be either a minority or simply less vocal than those who are not. A significant portion of those who frequent exmo-specific groups (or at least post often) tend to be those who are angry and bitter. As far as I can tell some of them still blame the church for everything bad in their life even decades after leaving.
Those with a more healthy outlook tend to move on and find better things to do.”
From what I can tell, the rationality/EA community is lacking many ‘tells’ that tend to be present in high demand religions. For example:
There’s no taboo against criticizing leadership
There’s no intrusive way to extort monetary contributions (occasional requests for donations are a lot less intrusive than “pay your tithing or lose out on privileges/go on guilt trip”
Ideas are just ideas, not some unified one-size-fits-all this-is-how-to-live-your-life-or-consequences (social or otherwise).
If you want to experiment with alcohol, I would recommend trying it at home, with a trusted friend. Less social pressure, more pleasant environment, no need to solve the logistics of driving home, no problem if you e.g. start vomiting.
Decide in advance how much you want to try. Do not change your decision after you started drinking. For example, if you choose that today you want to try one glass of wine, do that, but if after drinking the first glass you decide that it was okay and you can try another… don’t! (Ask your friend to help you keep your commitments, and evaluate their reliability based on if they actually do that.) The reason is that if you actually happen to be not okay, then you reasoning is untrustworthy. Sometimes, the more drunk people get, the more loudly they insist they are sober. (This is not a general rule, for example I am quite aware how drunk I am, but… I have seen other people do exactly this, and they just can’t be convinced.)
Keep some records for your future self? Ask your friend to record you doing some tasks, such as walking along a straight line, juggling, singing, explaining a math problem, doing some introspection about how you feel. So that you can compare how you felt at the moment, vs how it seemed from outside. (Sometimes people feel very creative or smart when they are drunk, but to those around them they are not.)
Do not drink too late in the evening; give yourself some time to get sober before you go to bed, maybe at least three hours. I don’t have a car, so I don’t know how much time it takes after drinking to be able to drive; I think 24 hours should be safe.
Alcohol strength from low to high:
American beer
non-American beer
wine
distillates (vodka)
Your reaction to alcohol probably depends on the kind of alcohol, on its amount, on your genetics, and on your previous exposure (exposure increases tolerance, but it you become a heavy drinker, it might also decrease it). As an American with no previous exposure, perhaps start with the American beer.
(My guess would be that the amount that obviously does something noticeable to you, but doesn’t result in anything bad, could be 1 bottle of beer, 2 deciliters of wine, or 1⁄2 deciliter of vodka.)
Many alcoholic drinks are basically a mix of a distillate, water, and flavor. So their strength depends on the amount of alcohol, which can range from very low to very high. You can’t guess the strength by the taste, because the taste mostly depends on the non-alcoholic parts of the drink. For example a mix of vodka and the right kind/amount of fruit juice can result in a drink that tastes completely innocent and will knock you out before you even realize you were drinking something alcoholic.
Keep some water or other non-alcoholic drink at hand, so you won’t drink more alcohol merely because you got thirsty (and too lazy/drunk to walk to the nearest water source).
It is generally recommended not to drink different types of alcohol at the same event. Not sure why, but it is one of those “it is known” things that most people follow. (My guess is that drinking different kinds of alcohol makes it more difficult to track intuitively how much you had? Like, a bottle of wine sounds like too much, but if you had a bottle of beer and a glass of wine and a little glass of vodka, then is still kinda sounds safe… or maybe it is not… and you do not have the mental capacity to figure it out at the moment.)
It takes maybe 5-30 minutes after drinking for the effect to appear at full strength. The effect is stronger on empty stomach; weaker if you eat e.g. bacon before drinking vodka. Physically demanding activity, such as dancing, helps metabolize the alcohol faster. (If you drink alcohol and do a physically demanding activity, remember to also drink enough water.)
Different people react differently to alcohol. Some get aggressive, others get cuddly; some feel full of energy, others feel sleepy; some forget what happened, others remember everything perfectly. Some get addicted, others don’t, not sure what makes the difference. Alcohol addiction is really bad!
As usual with drugs, most people who volunteer the advice are the ones you should not listen to (yes, I am aware of the irony), because obviously the ones with most experience are the addicts, and you do not want to do the things they consider okay. Also, people are fucking hypocrites about the drugs they like vs don’t like, mostly based on peer pressure; for example most rationalists consider drinking alcohol stupid and low-status… and then they overdose on some drug that happened to be popular in the Bay Area, because someone told them it was high-status and expanding their intellectual experience or whatever. I prefer alcohol, but I can also go for months without it, so I guess I am okay.