Do still have any Mormon friends? Do you want to help them break away, do you think it’s something they should do on their own, or do you find whether they remain Mormon or not immaterial?
Do you think being a Mormon was not suited for you, or do you think it doesn’t work as a way of life in general? How do you think that your answer would change 50 years ago vs today?
Did you have contact/ongoing relationships with other Mormon communities while you were there? What is the variation between people/communities? How devout/lax are different people and different communities?
How much access to the internet and the wider world did you have growing up? Were local/state/international events routinely brought up in small talk?
I found LessWrong via HPMoR. I found HPMoR because it was mentioned offhand on an unrelated article as an example of a piece of fan-fiction that was actually good...and it was.
Many of my friends and most of my immediate and extended family are Mormon. I’ll happily discuss my opinions to any who seem like they want help/are searching for answers, but I’m not in the habit of proactively questioning their beliefs since bringing up info directly critical of the Church tends to make True Believers instantly defensive and suspicious. Social ‘immune systems’ are incredible in how they defend existing beliefs. I do try to indirectly raise the sanity waterline in the hope that others will find their own way out of their own volition. I’m more or less resigned to leave those who are content alone, it seems quite futile to try to rescue someone who doesn’t want to be rescued, and they might not appreciate it even if the ‘brute force logic’ solution did manage to convince them.
Anything that can be destroyed by the truth should be. 50 years ago would have been more difficult to find my way out of because the internet didn’t exist.
Even between households there’s a lot of variation in how certain rules and interpreted. My family was more on the extreme end of the Sabbath Observance spectrum, while most other kids I knew were allowed to play video games and generally do what they wanted on Sunday. It was very difficult to grow up dreading every Sunday, and even though I wasn’t all that ‘rebellious’ of a teenager necessity caused me to find a quiet spot to read sci-fi/fantasy novels or play video games when my parents weren’t looking. Some other things my parents didn’t allow:
No Pg-13 movies, mostly because anything remotely sexually suggestive was considered ‘inappropriate’. This essentially was enforced only at home. They acknowledged there was nothing stopping us from watching whatever movies at our friends houses and they wouldn’t try to stop us, but they would passively disapprove. Most other Mormon families were far more lax about this and less prudish about media in general.
They discouraged caffeine, although that was more relaxed. I know there are some Mormon communities that consider ALL caffeinated drinks taboo instead of just Tea and Coffee.
Teenagers were not allowed to date at all until age 16 or older. Being a socially awkward early-teen boy this had the unfortunate consequence of me reasoning that “since I can’t date anyway what’s the point of getting to know girls?”...Which I would realize later was just an excuse to avoid doing things out of my comfort zone and I should have used that important time to develop my social skills in a safe environment.
I had a decent amount of internet access and quickly became better at computers than both of my parents. I taught myself coding by learning to mod games, and my skill with code eventually turned into a career. There wasn’t total isolation from current events, although everything I heard was filtered through the highly-conservative lens of the adults around me. (A few of my relatives are also members of the JBS and believe that 911 was an ‘inside job’ and similar things from the Q-Anon bingo chart.) My parents were very opposed to all attempts to build high-density housing[1] nearby because of traffic/infrastructure concerns.
I personally know at least 3 people, in addition to myself, who ended up leaving Mormonism because they were introduced to HPMOR. I don’t know if HPMOR has had a similar impact on other religious communities, or if the Utah/mormon community just particularly enjoys Harry Potter, but Eliezer has possibly unwittingly had a massively lifechanging impact on many, many people just by making his rationality teaching in the format of a harry potter fanfiction.
The answer might be unhelpful due to selection bias, but I’m curious to learn your view of QAnon. Would you say it works like a fandom for people who think they aren’t allowed to read or watch fiction? I get the strong sense that half the appeal—aside from the fun of bearing false witness—is getting to invent your own version of how the conspiracy works. (In particular, the pseudoscientific FNAF-esque idea at the heart of it isn’t meant to be believed, but to inspire exegesis like that on the Kessel Run.) This would be called fanfic or “fanwank” if they admitted it was based on a fictional setting. Is there something vital you think I’m missing?
To clarify, I was allowed to read fiction[1], just not on Sundays. Although my mom did disapprove of Harry Potter for a long while because ‘something something glorifies occult beliefs something something’.
A couple of my own hypothesis to take with a grain of salt:
One big part of the problem is the tendency of some to vastly underestimate how difficult it is to cover up anything that a lot of people know. Also a lack of fact checking. (My friend/relative/trusted neighbor told me this, therefore it must be true)
I think QAnon theories appeal to much of the same crowd as cults. If someone is willing to believe <small niche group> has secret knowledge that has failed peer review been suppressed by <Big Government/Forces of Ambiguous Evil>, they are more likely to accept the plausibility of other claims with similar appeal. So 911 conspiracy people are more likely to also believe that vaccines cause autism or <snake oil/homeopathy/fad treatment of the week> cures cancer but Big Pharma is keeping it secret, etc. I wonder if there’s any good data tracking the relative frequency of this sort of thing?
In a similar vein, Utah has more MLM schemes per capita than any other state.[2]
At least nobody I know believes in Flat Earth...as far as I know.
Well that’s disturbing in a different way. How often do they lose a significant fraction of their savings, though? How many are unvaccinated, which isn’t the same as loudly complaining about the shot’s supposed risks? The apparent lack of Flat Earthers could point to them actually expecting reality to conform to their words, and having a limit on the silliness of the claims they’ll believe. But if they aren’t losing real money, that could point to it being a game (or a cost of belonging).
I think they are genuinely unvaccinated. They believe (or profess to believe) in tons of quack medicine but AFAIK they don’t spend loads of money on it. If they had a health emergency they’d still go to an ER, so they’re not completely in denial of modern medicine.
How did you find LessWrong?
Do still have any Mormon friends? Do you want to help them break away, do you think it’s something they should do on their own, or do you find whether they remain Mormon or not immaterial?
Do you think being a Mormon was not suited for you, or do you think it doesn’t work as a way of life in general? How do you think that your answer would change 50 years ago vs today?
Did you have contact/ongoing relationships with other Mormon communities while you were there? What is the variation between people/communities? How devout/lax are different people and different communities?
How much access to the internet and the wider world did you have growing up? Were local/state/international events routinely brought up in small talk?
I found LessWrong via HPMoR. I found HPMoR because it was mentioned offhand on an unrelated article as an example of a piece of fan-fiction that was actually good...and it was.
Many of my friends and most of my immediate and extended family are Mormon. I’ll happily discuss my opinions to any who seem like they want help/are searching for answers, but I’m not in the habit of proactively questioning their beliefs since bringing up info directly critical of the Church tends to make True Believers instantly defensive and suspicious. Social ‘immune systems’ are incredible in how they defend existing beliefs.
I do try to indirectly raise the sanity waterline in the hope that others will find their own way out of their own volition.
I’m more or less resigned to leave those who are content alone, it seems quite futile to try to rescue someone who doesn’t want to be rescued, and they might not appreciate it even if the ‘brute force logic’ solution did manage to convince them.
Anything that can be destroyed by the truth should be. 50 years ago would have been more difficult to find my way out of because the internet didn’t exist.
Even between households there’s a lot of variation in how certain rules and interpreted. My family was more on the extreme end of the Sabbath Observance spectrum, while most other kids I knew were allowed to play video games and generally do what they wanted on Sunday. It was very difficult to grow up dreading every Sunday, and even though I wasn’t all that ‘rebellious’ of a teenager necessity caused me to find a quiet spot to read sci-fi/fantasy novels or play video games when my parents weren’t looking.
Some other things my parents didn’t allow:
No Pg-13 movies, mostly because anything remotely sexually suggestive was considered ‘inappropriate’. This essentially was enforced only at home. They acknowledged there was nothing stopping us from watching whatever movies at our friends houses and they wouldn’t try to stop us, but they would passively disapprove. Most other Mormon families were far more lax about this and less prudish about media in general.
They discouraged caffeine, although that was more relaxed. I know there are some Mormon communities that consider ALL caffeinated drinks taboo instead of just Tea and Coffee.
Teenagers were not allowed to date at all until age 16 or older. Being a socially awkward early-teen boy this had the unfortunate consequence of me reasoning that “since I can’t date anyway what’s the point of getting to know girls?”...Which I would realize later was just an excuse to avoid doing things out of my comfort zone and I should have used that important time to develop my social skills in a safe environment.
I had a decent amount of internet access and quickly became better at computers than both of my parents. I taught myself coding by learning to mod games, and my skill with code eventually turned into a career. There wasn’t total isolation from current events, although everything I heard was filtered through the highly-conservative lens of the adults around me. (A few of my relatives are also members of the JBS and believe that 911 was an ‘inside job’ and similar things from the Q-Anon bingo chart.) My parents were very opposed to all attempts to build high-density housing[1] nearby because of traffic/infrastructure concerns.
(i.e. anything more dense than 1⁄3 acre lots with a yard)
I personally know at least 3 people, in addition to myself, who ended up leaving Mormonism because they were introduced to HPMOR. I don’t know if HPMOR has had a similar impact on other religious communities, or if the Utah/mormon community just particularly enjoys Harry Potter, but Eliezer has possibly unwittingly had a massively lifechanging impact on many, many people just by making his rationality teaching in the format of a harry potter fanfiction.
That’s neat! In my case I didn’t leave because of HPMOR specifically, although it certainly didn’t hurt.
The answer might be unhelpful due to selection bias, but I’m curious to learn your view of QAnon. Would you say it works like a fandom for people who think they aren’t allowed to read or watch fiction? I get the strong sense that half the appeal—aside from the fun of bearing false witness—is getting to invent your own version of how the conspiracy works. (In particular, the pseudoscientific FNAF-esque idea at the heart of it isn’t meant to be believed, but to inspire exegesis like that on the Kessel Run.) This would be called fanfic or “fanwank” if they admitted it was based on a fictional setting. Is there something vital you think I’m missing?
To clarify, I was allowed to read fiction[1], just not on Sundays. Although my mom did disapprove of Harry Potter for a long while because ‘something something glorifies occult beliefs something something’.
A couple of my own hypothesis to take with a grain of salt:
One big part of the problem is the tendency of some to vastly underestimate how difficult it is to cover up anything that a lot of people know. Also a lack of fact checking. (My friend/relative/trusted neighbor told me this, therefore it must be true)
I think QAnon theories appeal to much of the same crowd as cults. If someone is willing to believe <small niche group> has secret knowledge that has
failed peer reviewbeen suppressed by <Big Government/Forces of Ambiguous Evil>, they are more likely to accept the plausibility of other claims with similar appeal. So 911 conspiracy people are more likely to also believe that vaccines cause autism or <snake oil/homeopathy/fad treatment of the week> cures cancer but Big Pharma is keeping it secret, etc.I wonder if there’s any good data tracking the relative frequency of this sort of thing?
In a similar vein, Utah has more MLM schemes per capita than any other state.[2]
At least nobody I know believes in Flat Earth...as far as I know.
As long as it didn’t have objectionable content, like anything remotely sexual.
https://kutv.com/news/local/follow-the-profit-how-mormon-culture-made-utah-a-hotbed-for-multi-level-marketers
Well that’s disturbing in a different way. How often do they lose a significant fraction of their savings, though? How many are unvaccinated, which isn’t the same as loudly complaining about the shot’s supposed risks? The apparent lack of Flat Earthers could point to them actually expecting reality to conform to their words, and having a limit on the silliness of the claims they’ll believe. But if they aren’t losing real money, that could point to it being a game (or a cost of belonging).
I think they are genuinely unvaccinated. They believe (or profess to believe) in tons of quack medicine but AFAIK they don’t spend loads of money on it. If they had a health emergency they’d still go to an ER, so they’re not completely in denial of modern medicine.