I don’t understand how the remaining technical problem is not basically the whole of the alignment problem
Yes. I don’t think the paper constitutes any progress on the alignment problem. (No surprise, since it talks about the problem for only a couple sentences.)
Hmm, maybe you’re confused that the title refers to “an unsolved technical alignment problem” instead of “the unsolved technical alignment problem”? Well, I didn’t mean it that way. I think that solving technical alignment entails solving a different (albeit related) technical problem for each different possible way to build / train AGI. The paper is (perhaps) a possible way to build / train AGI, and therefore it has an alignment problem. That’s all I meant there.
Yes, I think that was it; and that I did not (and still don’t) understand what about that possible AGI architecture is non-trivial and has a non-trivial implementations for alignment, even if not ones that make it easier. It seem like not only the same problems carefully hidden, but the same flavor of the same problems on plain sight.
I think of my specialty as mostly “trying to solve the alignment problem for model-based RL”. (LeCun’s paper is an example of model-based RL.) I think that’s a somewhat different activity than, say, “trying to solve the alignment problem for LLMs”. Like, I read plenty of alignmentforum posts on the latter topic, and I mostly don’t find them very relevant to my work. (There are exceptions.) E.g. the waluigi effect is not something that seems at all relevant to my work, but it’s extremely relevant to the LLM-alignment crowd. Conversely, for example, here’s a random recent post I wrote that I believe would be utterly useless to anyone focused on trying to solve the alignment problem for LLMs.
A big difference is that I feel entitled to assume that there’s a data structure labeled “world-model”, and there’s a different data-structure labeled “value function” (a.k.a. “critic”). Maybe each of those data structures is individually a big mess of a trillion uninterpretable floating-point numbers. But it still matters that there are two data structures, and we know where each lives in memory, and we know what role each is playing, how it’s updated, etc. That changes the kinds of detailed interventions that one might consider doing. [There could be more than two data structures, that’s just an example.]
I see. I didn’t fully adapt to the fact that not all alignment is about RL.
Beside the point: I think those labels on the data structures are very confusing. Both the actor and the critic are very likely to have so specialized world models (projected from the labeled world model) and planning abilities. The values of the actor need not be the same as the output of the critic. And things value-related and planning-related may easily leak into the world model if you don’t actively try to prevent it. So I suspect that we should ignore the labels and focus on architecture and training methods.
Sure, we can take some particular model-based RL algorithm (MuZero, APTAMI, the human brain algorithm, whatever), but instead of “the reward function” we call it “function #5829”, and instead of “the value function” we call it “function #6241”, etc. If you insist that I use those terms, then I would still be perfectly capable of describing step-by-step why this algorithm would try to kill us. That would be pretty annoying though. I would rather use the normal terms.
I’m not quite sure what you’re talking about (“projected from the labeled world model”??), but I guess it’s off-topic here unless it specifically applies to APTAMI.
FWIW the problems addressed in this post involve the model-based RL system trying to kill us via using its model-based RL capabilities in the way we normally expect—where the planner plans, and the critic criticizes, and the world-model models the world, etc., and the result is that the system makes and executes a plan to kill us. I consider that the obvious, central type of alignment failure mode for model-based RL, and it remains an unsolved problem.
In addition, one might ask if there are other alignment failure modes too. E.g. people sometimes bring up more exotic things like the “mesa-optimizer” thing where the world-model is secretly harboring a full-fledged planning agent, or whatever. As it happens, I think those more exotic failure modes can be effectively mitigated, and are also quite unlikely to happen in the first place, in the particular context of model-based RL systems. But that depends a lot on how the model-based RL system in question is supposed to work, in detail, and I’m not sure I want to get into that topic here, it’s kinda off-topic. I talk about it a bit in the intro here.
Sorry for the off-topicness. I will not consider it rude if you stop reading here and reply with “just shut up”—but I do think that it is important:
A) I do agree that the first problem to address should probably be misalignment of the rewards to our values, and that some of the proposed problems are not likely in practice—including some versions of the planning-inside-worldmodel example.
B) I do not think that planning inside the critic or evaluating inside the actor are an example of that, because the functions that those two models are optimized to approximate reference each other explicitly in their definitions. It doesn’t mean that the critic is likely to one day kill us, just that we should take it into account when we try to I do understand what is going on.
C) Specifically, it implies 2 additional non-exotic alignment failures:
The critic itself did not converge to be a good approximation of the value function.
The actor did not converge to be a thing that maximize the output of the critic, and it maximize something else instead.
Yes. I don’t think the paper constitutes any progress on the alignment problem. (No surprise, since it talks about the problem for only a couple sentences.)
Hmm, maybe you’re confused that the title refers to “an unsolved technical alignment problem” instead of “the unsolved technical alignment problem”? Well, I didn’t mean it that way. I think that solving technical alignment entails solving a different (albeit related) technical problem for each different possible way to build / train AGI. The paper is (perhaps) a possible way to build / train AGI, and therefore it has an alignment problem. That’s all I meant there.
Yes, I think that was it; and that I did not (and still don’t) understand what about that possible AGI architecture is non-trivial and has a non-trivial implementations for alignment, even if not ones that make it easier. It seem like not only the same problems carefully hidden, but the same flavor of the same problems on plain sight.
I think of my specialty as mostly “trying to solve the alignment problem for model-based RL”. (LeCun’s paper is an example of model-based RL.) I think that’s a somewhat different activity than, say, “trying to solve the alignment problem for LLMs”. Like, I read plenty of alignmentforum posts on the latter topic, and I mostly don’t find them very relevant to my work. (There are exceptions.) E.g. the waluigi effect is not something that seems at all relevant to my work, but it’s extremely relevant to the LLM-alignment crowd. Conversely, for example, here’s a random recent post I wrote that I believe would be utterly useless to anyone focused on trying to solve the alignment problem for LLMs.
A big difference is that I feel entitled to assume that there’s a data structure labeled “world-model”, and there’s a different data-structure labeled “value function” (a.k.a. “critic”). Maybe each of those data structures is individually a big mess of a trillion uninterpretable floating-point numbers. But it still matters that there are two data structures, and we know where each lives in memory, and we know what role each is playing, how it’s updated, etc. That changes the kinds of detailed interventions that one might consider doing. [There could be more than two data structures, that’s just an example.]
I see. I didn’t fully adapt to the fact that not all alignment is about RL.
Beside the point: I think those labels on the data structures are very confusing. Both the actor and the critic are very likely to have so specialized world models (projected from the labeled world model) and planning abilities. The values of the actor need not be the same as the output of the critic. And things value-related and planning-related may easily leak into the world model if you don’t actively try to prevent it. So I suspect that we should ignore the labels and focus on architecture and training methods.
Sure, we can take some particular model-based RL algorithm (MuZero, APTAMI, the human brain algorithm, whatever), but instead of “the reward function” we call it “function #5829”, and instead of “the value function” we call it “function #6241”, etc. If you insist that I use those terms, then I would still be perfectly capable of describing step-by-step why this algorithm would try to kill us. That would be pretty annoying though. I would rather use the normal terms.
I’m not quite sure what you’re talking about (“projected from the labeled world model”??), but I guess it’s off-topic here unless it specifically applies to APTAMI.
FWIW the problems addressed in this post involve the model-based RL system trying to kill us via using its model-based RL capabilities in the way we normally expect—where the planner plans, and the critic criticizes, and the world-model models the world, etc., and the result is that the system makes and executes a plan to kill us. I consider that the obvious, central type of alignment failure mode for model-based RL, and it remains an unsolved problem.
In addition, one might ask if there are other alignment failure modes too. E.g. people sometimes bring up more exotic things like the “mesa-optimizer” thing where the world-model is secretly harboring a full-fledged planning agent, or whatever. As it happens, I think those more exotic failure modes can be effectively mitigated, and are also quite unlikely to happen in the first place, in the particular context of model-based RL systems. But that depends a lot on how the model-based RL system in question is supposed to work, in detail, and I’m not sure I want to get into that topic here, it’s kinda off-topic. I talk about it a bit in the intro here.
Sorry for the off-topicness. I will not consider it rude if you stop reading here and reply with “just shut up”—but I do think that it is important:
A) I do agree that the first problem to address should probably be misalignment of the rewards to our values, and that some of the proposed problems are not likely in practice—including some versions of the planning-inside-worldmodel example.
B) I do not think that planning inside the critic or evaluating inside the actor are an example of that, because the functions that those two models are optimized to approximate reference each other explicitly in their definitions. It doesn’t mean that the critic is likely to one day kill us, just that we should take it into account when we try to I do understand what is going on.
C) Specifically, it implies 2 additional non-exotic alignment failures:
The critic itself did not converge to be a good approximation of the value function.
The actor did not converge to be a thing that maximize the output of the critic, and it maximize something else instead.