I was insufficiently clear: that was a question about your model of my motivation, not what you want my motivation to be. You can say you want to hear more, but if you act against people saying things, which do you expect to have more impact?
But in the spirit of kindness I will write a longer response.
This subject is difficult to talk about because your support here is tepid and reluctant at best, and your detractors are polite.
Now, you might look at OrphanWilde or Clarity and say “you call that polite?”—no, I don’t. Those are the only people willing to break politeness and voice their lack of approval in detail. This anecdote about people talking in the quiet car comes to mind; lots of people look at something and realize “this is a problem” but only a few decide it’s worth the cost to speak up about it. Disproportionately, those are going to be people who feel the cost less strongly.
There’s a related common knowledge point—I might think this is likely net negative, but I don’t know how many other people think this is a likely net negative. Only if I know that lots of people think this is a likely net negative, and that they are also aware that this is the sentiment, does it make sense to be the spokesperson for that view. If I know about that dynamic, I can deliberately try to jumpstart the process by paying the costs of establishing common knowledge.
And so by writing a short comment I was hoping to get the best of both worlds—signalling that I think this is likely a net negative and that this is an opinion that should be public, without having to go into the awkward details of why.
That’s just the social dynamics. Let’s get to the actual content. Why do I think this is likely a net negative? Normally I would write something like this privately, but I’ll make it public because we’re already having a public discussion.
I agree that it would be nice if the broader population knew more clear thinking techniques. It’s not obvious to me that it would be nice if more of the broader population came to LW. I think that deliberative rationality, like discussed on LW, is mostly useful for people with lots of spare CPU cycles and a reflective personality.
Once, I shared some bread I baked with my then-landlord. She liked it, and asked me how I made it, and I said “oh, it’s really easy, let me lend you the book I learned from.” She demurred; she didn’t like reading things, and learned much better watching people do things. Sure, I said, and invited her over the next time I baked some to show her how it’s done.
The Sequences is very much “The Way for software engineer-types as radioed back by Eliezer Yudkowsky.” I am pessimistic about attempts to get other types of people closer to The Way by translating The Sequences into a language closer to theirs; much more than just the language needs to change, because the inferential gaps are in different places. I strongly suspect your ‘typical American’ with IQ 100 would get more out of The Way as radioed back by someone closer to them. Byron Katie, with her workshops and her Youtube videos, is the sort of person I would model after if I was targeting a broad market.
I have not paid close attention to the material you’ve produced because I find it painful. From what little I have seen, I have mostly gotten the impression that it’s poorly presented, and am some combination of unwilling and unable to provide you detailed criticism on why. I also think this is more than that I’m not the target audience—I don’t have the negative reaction to pjeby that many do, for example, and he has much more of a self-help-style popular approach. To recklessly speculate on the underlying causes, I don’t get the impression that you deeply respect or understand your audience, and what you think they want doesn’t line up with what they actually want, in a way that seems transparent. It seems like How do you do, fellow kids?.
Standard writing advice is “write what you know.” If you want to do rationality for college professors, great! I imagine that your comparative advantage at that would be higher. But just because you don’t see people pointing rationality at the masses doesn’t mean that’s a hole you would be any good at filling. Among other things, I would worry that because you’re not the target audience, you won’t be aware of what’s already there / what your competition is.
Only if I know that lots of people think this is a likely net negative, and that they are also aware that this is the sentiment, does it make sense to be the spokesperson for that view. If I know about that dynamic, I can deliberately try to jumpstart the process by paying the costs of establishing common knowledge.
The same effect works if people think this is a net positive. Furthermore, Less Wrong is a quite critical community, with people much more likely to provide criticism than support, as the latter wins less social status points. This is not to cast aspersions on the community at all—there’s a reason I participate actively. I like being challenged and updating my beliefs. But let’s be honest, this is a community of challenge and debate, not warm fuzzies and kumbayah.
Now let’s get to the meat of the matter.
I agree that it would be nice if the broader population knew more clear thinking techniques. It’s not obvious to me that it would be nice if more of the broader population came to LW.
I agree that it would not be nice if more of the broader population came to LW, the inferential gap would be way too big, and Endless September sucks. I discuss more in my comment here how that is not the goal I am pursuing, together with other InIn participants. The goal is to simply convey more clear thinking techniques effectively to the broad audience and raise the sanity waterline. For a select few, as that comment describes, they can go up to LW, likely those with a significantly high IQ but lack of sufficient education about how their mind works.
To recklessly speculate on the underlying causes, I don’t get the impression that you deeply respect or understand your audience
I am confused by this comment. If I didn’t understand my audience, how come my articles are so successful with them? Believe me, I have extensively researched the audiences there, and how to engage them well. You fail at my mind if you think my writing would be only engaging to college professors. And please consider who you are talking to when you discuss writing advice. I have read many books about writing, and taught writing as part of my college teaching.
As proof, here is evidence. I have only started publishing on Lifehacker—published 3 so far—and my articles way outperform the average of being shared under 1K. This is the average for experienced and non-experienced writers alike. My articles have all been shared over 1K times, and some twice as much if not more. The fact that they are shared so widely is demonstrable evidence that I understand my audience and engage it well.
Has this caused you to update on any of your claims to any extent?
You’re welcome! Thank you for continuing to be polite.
Has this caused you to update on any of your claims to any extent?
I was already aware of how many times your articles have been shared. I would not base my judgment of a painter’s skill with the brush on how many books on painting they had read.
I guess the metaphor I would take for the painter is how many of her paintings have sold. That’s the appropriate metaphor for how many times the articles were shared. If the painter’s goal is to sell paintings with specific content—as it is my goal to have articles shared with specific content not typically read by an ordinary person—then sharing of articles widely indicates success.
I was insufficiently clear: that was a question about your model of my motivation, not what you want my motivation to be. You can say you want to hear more, but if you act against people saying things, which do you expect to have more impact?
But in the spirit of kindness I will write a longer response.
This subject is difficult to talk about because your support here is tepid and reluctant at best, and your detractors are polite.
Now, you might look at OrphanWilde or Clarity and say “you call that polite?”—no, I don’t. Those are the only people willing to break politeness and voice their lack of approval in detail. This anecdote about people talking in the quiet car comes to mind; lots of people look at something and realize “this is a problem” but only a few decide it’s worth the cost to speak up about it. Disproportionately, those are going to be people who feel the cost less strongly.
There’s a related common knowledge point—I might think this is likely net negative, but I don’t know how many other people think this is a likely net negative. Only if I know that lots of people think this is a likely net negative, and that they are also aware that this is the sentiment, does it make sense to be the spokesperson for that view. If I know about that dynamic, I can deliberately try to jumpstart the process by paying the costs of establishing common knowledge.
And so by writing a short comment I was hoping to get the best of both worlds—signalling that I think this is likely a net negative and that this is an opinion that should be public, without having to go into the awkward details of why.
That’s just the social dynamics. Let’s get to the actual content. Why do I think this is likely a net negative? Normally I would write something like this privately, but I’ll make it public because we’re already having a public discussion.
I agree that it would be nice if the broader population knew more clear thinking techniques. It’s not obvious to me that it would be nice if more of the broader population came to LW. I think that deliberative rationality, like discussed on LW, is mostly useful for people with lots of spare CPU cycles and a reflective personality.
Once, I shared some bread I baked with my then-landlord. She liked it, and asked me how I made it, and I said “oh, it’s really easy, let me lend you the book I learned from.” She demurred; she didn’t like reading things, and learned much better watching people do things. Sure, I said, and invited her over the next time I baked some to show her how it’s done.
The Sequences is very much “The Way for software engineer-types as radioed back by Eliezer Yudkowsky.” I am pessimistic about attempts to get other types of people closer to The Way by translating The Sequences into a language closer to theirs; much more than just the language needs to change, because the inferential gaps are in different places. I strongly suspect your ‘typical American’ with IQ 100 would get more out of The Way as radioed back by someone closer to them. Byron Katie, with her workshops and her Youtube videos, is the sort of person I would model after if I was targeting a broad market.
I have not paid close attention to the material you’ve produced because I find it painful. From what little I have seen, I have mostly gotten the impression that it’s poorly presented, and am some combination of unwilling and unable to provide you detailed criticism on why. I also think this is more than that I’m not the target audience—I don’t have the negative reaction to pjeby that many do, for example, and he has much more of a self-help-style popular approach. To recklessly speculate on the underlying causes, I don’t get the impression that you deeply respect or understand your audience, and what you think they want doesn’t line up with what they actually want, in a way that seems transparent. It seems like How do you do, fellow kids?.
Standard writing advice is “write what you know.” If you want to do rationality for college professors, great! I imagine that your comparative advantage at that would be higher. But just because you don’t see people pointing rationality at the masses doesn’t mean that’s a hole you would be any good at filling. Among other things, I would worry that because you’re not the target audience, you won’t be aware of what’s already there / what your competition is.
Thank you for actually engaging with the content.
The same effect works if people think this is a net positive. Furthermore, Less Wrong is a quite critical community, with people much more likely to provide criticism than support, as the latter wins less social status points. This is not to cast aspersions on the community at all—there’s a reason I participate actively. I like being challenged and updating my beliefs. But let’s be honest, this is a community of challenge and debate, not warm fuzzies and kumbayah.
Now let’s get to the meat of the matter.
I agree that it would not be nice if more of the broader population came to LW, the inferential gap would be way too big, and Endless September sucks. I discuss more in my comment here how that is not the goal I am pursuing, together with other InIn participants. The goal is to simply convey more clear thinking techniques effectively to the broad audience and raise the sanity waterline. For a select few, as that comment describes, they can go up to LW, likely those with a significantly high IQ but lack of sufficient education about how their mind works.
I am confused by this comment. If I didn’t understand my audience, how come my articles are so successful with them? Believe me, I have extensively researched the audiences there, and how to engage them well. You fail at my mind if you think my writing would be only engaging to college professors. And please consider who you are talking to when you discuss writing advice. I have read many books about writing, and taught writing as part of my college teaching.
As proof, here is evidence. I have only started publishing on Lifehacker—published 3 so far—and my articles way outperform the average of being shared under 1K. This is the average for experienced and non-experienced writers alike. My articles have all been shared over 1K times, and some twice as much if not more. The fact that they are shared so widely is demonstrable evidence that I understand my audience and engage it well.
Has this caused you to update on any of your claims to any extent?
You’re welcome! Thank you for continuing to be polite.
I was already aware of how many times your articles have been shared. I would not base my judgment of a painter’s skill with the brush on how many books on painting they had read.
I guess the metaphor I would take for the painter is how many of her paintings have sold. That’s the appropriate metaphor for how many times the articles were shared. If the painter’s goal is to sell paintings with specific content—as it is my goal to have articles shared with specific content not typically read by an ordinary person—then sharing of articles widely indicates success.
+1
I thought upvotes were used for that purpose.
By design, upvotes don’t show public approval. Commenting +1 does.
Ah, good point
...yes, and?