Let’s start with a false statement from one of Gleb’s articles:
Intuitively, we feel our mind to be a cohesive whole, and perceive ourselves as intentional and rational thinkers. Yet cognitive science research shows that in reality, the intentional part of our mind is like a little rider on top of a huge elephant of emotions and intuitions. This is why researchers frequently divide our mental processes into two different systems of dealing with information, the intentional system and the autopilot system.
What’s false? Researchers don’t use the terms “intentional system” and “autopilot system”.
Why is that the problem? Aren’t the terms near enough to system I and system II?
A person who’s interested might want to read additional literature on the subject. The fact that the terms Gleb invented don’t match with the existing literature means that it’s harder for a person to go from reading Gleb articles to reading higher level material.
If the person digs deeper they will sooner or later run into trouble. The might have a conversation with a genuine neuroscientist and talk about the “intentional system” and “autopilot system” and find that the neuroscientist hasn’t heard of making the distinction in those terms.
It might take a while till they understand that deception happened but it might hinder them from propressing.
I think talking about system I and system II in the way Gleb does raises the risk of readers coming a way with believing that reflective thinking is superior to intuitive thinking. It suggests that it’s about using system II for important issues instead of focusing on aligning system I and system II with each other the way CFAR proposes.
The stereotype of people who categorically prefer system II to system I is straw-vulcan’s. Level 2 of rationality is not “being a straw-vulcan”.
In the article on his website Gleb says:
The intentional system reflects our rational thinking, and centers around the prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain that evolved more recently.
That sounds to me like neurobabble. Kahnmann doesn’t say that system II is about a specific part of the brain.
Even if it would be completely true, having that knowledge doesn’t help a person to be more rational. If you want to make a message as simple as possible you could drop that piece of information without any problem.
Why doesn’t he drop it and make the article simpler? Because it helps with pushing an ideology. What other people in this thread called rationality as religion. The rationality that fills someone sense of belong to a group.
I don’t see that people rationality get’s raised in the process of that.
That leads to the question of “what are the basics of rationality?”
I think the facebook group provides sometimes a good venue to understand what new people get wrong. Yesterday one person accused another of being a fake account. I asked the accuser for his credence but he replied that he can’t give a probability for something like that. The accuser didn’t thought in terms of Cromwell’s rule.
Making that step from thinking “you are a fake account” to having a mental category of “80% certainty: you are a fake account” is progress. No neuroscience is needed to make that progress.
Rationality for beginners could attempt to teach Cromwell’s rule while keeping it as simple as possible. I’m even okay if the term Cromwell’s rule doesn’t appear. The article can have pretty pictures, but it shouldn’t make any false claims.
I admit that “What are the basics of rationality?” isn’t an easy question. This community often complicates things.
Scott recently wrote what developmental milestones are you missing. That article list 4 milestones with one of them being Cromwell’s rule (Scott doesn’t name it).
In my current view of rationality other basics might be TAPs, noticing, tiny habits, “how not to be a straw-vulcan” and “have conversation with the goal of learning something new yourself, instead of having the goal of just effecting the other person”.
A good way to searching for basics might also be to notice events where you yourself go: “Why doesn’t this other person get how the world works, X is obvious to people at LW, why to I have to suffer from living in a world where people don’t get X?”.
I don’t think the answer to that question will be that people think that the prefrontal cortex is about system II thinking.
I agree with much of this, but that quote isn’t a false claim. It does not (quite) say that researchers use the terms “intentional system” and “autopilot system”, which seem like sensible English descriptions if for some bizarre reason you can’t use the shorter names. Now, I don’t know why anyone would avoid the scholarly names when for once those make sense—but I’ve also never tried to write an article for Lifehack.
What is your credence for the explanation you give, considering that eg the audience may remember reading about many poorly-supported systems with levels numbered I and II—seeing a difference between that and the recognition that humans evolved may be easier for some then evaluating journal citations.
which seem like sensible English descriptions if for some bizarre reason you can’t use the shorter names
The motivation of Kahnmann to use system I and system II isn’t to have shorter names. It’s that there are existing conceptions among people about words describing mental concepts and he doesn’t want to use them.
Wikipedia list from Kahnmann:
In the book’s first section, Kahneman describes two different ways the brain forms thoughts:
System 1: Fast, automatic, frequent, emotional, stereotypic, subconscious System 2: Slow, effortful, infrequent, logical, calculating, conscious
Emotional/logical is a different distinction then intentional/autopilot. Trained people can shut on and off emotions via their intentions and the process has little to do with being logical or calculating.
But even given them new names that scientists don’t give them might be a valid move. If you how even do that then you should be open about the fact that you invented new names.
Given science public nature I also think that you should be open about why you choose certain terms and choosing new terms should come with an explanation of why you prefer them over alternatives.
The reason shouldn’t be that your organisation is named “intentional insights” and that’s why you call it the “intentional system”. Again that pattern leads to the rationality is about using system II instead of system I position with differ from the CFAR position.
In Gleb’s own summary of Thinking Fast and slow he writes:
System 1 runs automatically and System 2 is normally in a comfortable low-effort mode, in which only a fraction of its capacity is engaged. System 1 continuously generates suggestions for System 2: impressions, intuitions, intentions, and feelings.
Given that in Kahnmann’s framework intentions are generated by system I, calling system II the “intentional system” produces problems.
What is your credence for the explanation you give,
Explanations don’t have credence, predictions do. If you specify a prediction I can give you my credence for it.
Let’s start with a false statement from one of Gleb’s articles:
What’s false? Researchers don’t use the terms “intentional system” and “autopilot system”.
Why is that the problem? Aren’t the terms near enough to system I and system II? A person who’s interested might want to read additional literature on the subject. The fact that the terms Gleb invented don’t match with the existing literature means that it’s harder for a person to go from reading Gleb articles to reading higher level material.
If the person digs deeper they will sooner or later run into trouble. The might have a conversation with a genuine neuroscientist and talk about the “intentional system” and “autopilot system” and find that the neuroscientist hasn’t heard of making the distinction in those terms. It might take a while till they understand that deception happened but it might hinder them from propressing.
I think talking about system I and system II in the way Gleb does raises the risk of readers coming a way with believing that reflective thinking is superior to intuitive thinking. It suggests that it’s about using system II for important issues instead of focusing on aligning system I and system II with each other the way CFAR proposes. The stereotype of people who categorically prefer system II to system I is straw-vulcan’s. Level 2 of rationality is not “being a straw-vulcan”.
In the article on his website Gleb says:
That sounds to me like neurobabble. Kahnmann doesn’t say that system II is about a specific part of the brain. Even if it would be completely true, having that knowledge doesn’t help a person to be more rational. If you want to make a message as simple as possible you could drop that piece of information without any problem.
Why doesn’t he drop it and make the article simpler? Because it helps with pushing an ideology. What other people in this thread called rationality as religion. The rationality that fills someone sense of belong to a group.
I don’t see that people rationality get’s raised in the process of that. That leads to the question of “what are the basics of rationality?”
I think the facebook group provides sometimes a good venue to understand what new people get wrong. Yesterday one person accused another of being a fake account. I asked the accuser for his credence but he replied that he can’t give a probability for something like that. The accuser didn’t thought in terms of Cromwell’s rule. Making that step from thinking “you are a fake account” to having a mental category of “80% certainty: you are a fake account” is progress. No neuroscience is needed to make that progress.
Rationality for beginners could attempt to teach Cromwell’s rule while keeping it as simple as possible. I’m even okay if the term Cromwell’s rule doesn’t appear. The article can have pretty pictures, but it shouldn’t make any false claims.
I admit that “What are the basics of rationality?” isn’t an easy question. This community often complicates things. Scott recently wrote what developmental milestones are you missing. That article list 4 milestones with one of them being Cromwell’s rule (Scott doesn’t name it).
In my current view of rationality other basics might be TAPs, noticing, tiny habits, “how not to be a straw-vulcan” and “have conversation with the goal of learning something new yourself, instead of having the goal of just effecting the other person”.
A good way to searching for basics might also be to notice events where you yourself go: “Why doesn’t this other person get how the world works, X is obvious to people at LW, why to I have to suffer from living in a world where people don’t get X?”. I don’t think the answer to that question will be that people think that the prefrontal cortex is about system II thinking.
I agree with much of this, but that quote isn’t a false claim. It does not (quite) say that researchers use the terms “intentional system” and “autopilot system”, which seem like sensible English descriptions if for some bizarre reason you can’t use the shorter names. Now, I don’t know why anyone would avoid the scholarly names when for once those make sense—but I’ve also never tried to write an article for Lifehack.
What is your credence for the explanation you give, considering that eg the audience may remember reading about many poorly-supported systems with levels numbered I and II—seeing a difference between that and the recognition that humans evolved may be easier for some then evaluating journal citations.
The motivation of Kahnmann to use system I and system II isn’t to have shorter names. It’s that there are existing conceptions among people about words describing mental concepts and he doesn’t want to use them.
Wikipedia list from Kahnmann:
Emotional/logical is a different distinction then intentional/autopilot. Trained people can shut on and off emotions via their intentions and the process has little to do with being logical or calculating.
But even given them new names that scientists don’t give them might be a valid move. If you how even do that then you should be open about the fact that you invented new names. Given science public nature I also think that you should be open about why you choose certain terms and choosing new terms should come with an explanation of why you prefer them over alternatives.
The reason shouldn’t be that your organisation is named “intentional insights” and that’s why you call it the “intentional system”. Again that pattern leads to the rationality is about using system II instead of system I position with differ from the CFAR position.
In Gleb’s own summary of Thinking Fast and slow he writes:
Given that in Kahnmann’s framework intentions are generated by system I, calling system II the “intentional system” produces problems.
Explanations don’t have credence, predictions do. If you specify a prediction I can give you my credence for it.
It might be worth correcting “Greb” and “Greg” to “Gleb” in that, to forestall confusion.
Thanks.