I think I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t understand how it’s a response to what I said, so perhaps I’ve missed something.
To summarize:
I understand your point that the ratio of attention devoted to preventing abortion compared to attention paid to preventing other sources of fetal death, compared to the ratio of the actual deaths caused by each, suggests that the attention paid to abortion isn’t primarily caused by a desire to prevent fetal deaths.
It seems to me one could similarly argue that the ratio of attention devoted to preventing murder compared to attention paid to preventing death from old age, compared to the ratio of the actual deaths caused by each, suggests that the attention paid to murder isn’t primarily caused by a desire to prevent adult deaths.
That there exist people (doctors, etc.) who work on maintaining adult death [EDIT: er, I meant, of course, “health”], and who work on maintaining fetal health, doesn’t change either fact.
I was attempting to describe why I don’t think the ratios of attention are comparable between fetal deaths and ex vivo human deaths. We devote much more attention to preventing other deaths for ex vivo humans than we do for fetuses, relative to how much attention we devote to murder or abortion.
I see your point about aging specifically as a cause of death, but I think that’s a different issue than preventing death overall. We do investigate various methods of mitigating the “rigors” of old age, even if research to eliminate it entirely is sparse. There are many causes of death unrelated to aging we vigorously try to prevent, and similarly miscarriages can have many causes, but efforts to prevent them are not nearly as vigorous.
Ah, I get it. OK, sure, if you’re making a quantitative argument, then I guess I understand where you’re coming from.
The parents I know devoted a lot of medical resources to prenatal care, but I’m perfectly willing to believe they are atypical. What is your estimate of the two ratios involved for a wider community?
I’m sure prenatal care has become more common; over 80% of pregnant women entered into some form of prenatal care in 2005 (source). However, even considering that, anywhere from 25% to over 50% of pregnancies (depending on the source) end in miscarriage without the mother even knowing about the pregnancy. To someone who opposes abortion as murder, that should seem like a huge number of lives being lost. I just don’t think there’s anything comparable when we consider deaths of ex vivo humans.
Some statistics: approximately 4 million live births vs. 2 million pregnancy losses per year. (source) 60% of those losses are estimated to be from abortion, with 30% from miscarriage and a 10% from other causes, but the 30% from miscarriage is only the known pregnancies. If we take the estimations of unknown pregnancies into account, deaths from other causes equal if not exceed deaths from abortion. So, abortion does occur more often in the fetal population than murder in the ex vivo population, but it’s still a smaller percentage of fetal deaths than the attention paid to it.
The number of deaths in the ex vivo population was about 2,400,000 in 2007 (source). That’s comparable to the number of fetal deaths. We do focus on catching murderers as a function of government, but those who oppose abortion as murder focus almost all of their efforts on political and governmental issues. There exists a large community of medical research (and safety research, for that matter) dedicated to preventing ex vivo deaths, but relatively little in comparison for fetal deaths. Even if you’d assert that the ratio for ex vivo murder vs. death is 1:1 (and personally, it seems to me like it’s less than 1:1), the ratio for abortion vs. death is clearly much greater than 1:1, and the number of deaths per year is similar.
I think I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t understand how it’s a response to what I said, so perhaps I’ve missed something.
To summarize:
I understand your point that the ratio of attention devoted to preventing abortion compared to attention paid to preventing other sources of fetal death, compared to the ratio of the actual deaths caused by each, suggests that the attention paid to abortion isn’t primarily caused by a desire to prevent fetal deaths.
It seems to me one could similarly argue that the ratio of attention devoted to preventing murder compared to attention paid to preventing death from old age, compared to the ratio of the actual deaths caused by each, suggests that the attention paid to murder isn’t primarily caused by a desire to prevent adult deaths.
That there exist people (doctors, etc.) who work on maintaining adult death [EDIT: er, I meant, of course, “health”], and who work on maintaining fetal health, doesn’t change either fact.
I was attempting to describe why I don’t think the ratios of attention are comparable between fetal deaths and ex vivo human deaths. We devote much more attention to preventing other deaths for ex vivo humans than we do for fetuses, relative to how much attention we devote to murder or abortion.
I see your point about aging specifically as a cause of death, but I think that’s a different issue than preventing death overall. We do investigate various methods of mitigating the “rigors” of old age, even if research to eliminate it entirely is sparse. There are many causes of death unrelated to aging we vigorously try to prevent, and similarly miscarriages can have many causes, but efforts to prevent them are not nearly as vigorous.
Ah, I get it. OK, sure, if you’re making a quantitative argument, then I guess I understand where you’re coming from.
The parents I know devoted a lot of medical resources to prenatal care, but I’m perfectly willing to believe they are atypical. What is your estimate of the two ratios involved for a wider community?
I’m sure prenatal care has become more common; over 80% of pregnant women entered into some form of prenatal care in 2005 (source). However, even considering that, anywhere from 25% to over 50% of pregnancies (depending on the source) end in miscarriage without the mother even knowing about the pregnancy. To someone who opposes abortion as murder, that should seem like a huge number of lives being lost. I just don’t think there’s anything comparable when we consider deaths of ex vivo humans.
Some statistics: approximately 4 million live births vs. 2 million pregnancy losses per year. (source) 60% of those losses are estimated to be from abortion, with 30% from miscarriage and a 10% from other causes, but the 30% from miscarriage is only the known pregnancies. If we take the estimations of unknown pregnancies into account, deaths from other causes equal if not exceed deaths from abortion. So, abortion does occur more often in the fetal population than murder in the ex vivo population, but it’s still a smaller percentage of fetal deaths than the attention paid to it.
The number of deaths in the ex vivo population was about 2,400,000 in 2007 (source). That’s comparable to the number of fetal deaths. We do focus on catching murderers as a function of government, but those who oppose abortion as murder focus almost all of their efforts on political and governmental issues. There exists a large community of medical research (and safety research, for that matter) dedicated to preventing ex vivo deaths, but relatively little in comparison for fetal deaths. Even if you’d assert that the ratio for ex vivo murder vs. death is 1:1 (and personally, it seems to me like it’s less than 1:1), the ratio for abortion vs. death is clearly much greater than 1:1, and the number of deaths per year is similar.
Pregnant women, surely.
D’oh. Fixed, thanks...