that’s very different from the decisions philh is talking about.
So, I’ve had the feeling from all of your comments on this thread that you think I’m talking about something different from what I think I’m taking about. I’ve not felt like going to the effort of teasing out the confusion, and I still don’t. But I would like to make it clear that I do not endorse this statement.
Ok, then I’m very confused. “punching” is intentional harm or intimidation, typically to establish hierarchy or enforce compliance. If you meant something else, you should use different words.
Specifically, if you meant pigouvian taxes or coasean redress (both of which are not punitive, but rather fee-for-costs-imposed), rather than censure and retribution, then most of my disagreement evaporates.
I was thinking of actions, not motivations. If Alice wants to convince people to punch Bob, then her motivations (punishment, protection, deterrence, restoration) will be relevant to what sort of arguments she makes and whether other people are likely to agree. But I don’t think they’re particularly relevant to the contents of this post.
Not 100% sure I grok what philh meant in the first place, but I also want to note that I didn’t mean for my example-from-fiction to precisely match what I interpreted philh to mean. It was just an easily-accessible example from thinking about the show and game theory.
I do happen to also think there are generalizable lessons from that, which apply to both punishment and pigouvian tax. But that was sort of accidental. (i.e. I quickly searched my brain for the most relevant seeming fictional example, found one that seemed relevant, and it happened to be reasonably relevant)
One could implement a monetary tax that involves shame and social stigma, which’d feel more like being punched. One could also have a culture where being punched comes with less stigma, and is a quick “take your lumps” sort of thing. There are benefits and tradeoffs to wielding shame/stigma/dominance as part of a punishment strategy. In all cases though, you’re trying to impose a cost on an action that you want to see less of.
So, I’ve had the feeling from all of your comments on this thread that you think I’m talking about something different from what I think I’m taking about. I’ve not felt like going to the effort of teasing out the confusion, and I still don’t. But I would like to make it clear that I do not endorse this statement.
Ok, then I’m very confused. “punching” is intentional harm or intimidation, typically to establish hierarchy or enforce compliance. If you meant something else, you should use different words.
Specifically, if you meant pigouvian taxes or coasean redress (both of which are not punitive, but rather fee-for-costs-imposed), rather than censure and retribution, then most of my disagreement evaporates.
I was thinking of actions, not motivations. If Alice wants to convince people to punch Bob, then her motivations (punishment, protection, deterrence, restoration) will be relevant to what sort of arguments she makes and whether other people are likely to agree. But I don’t think they’re particularly relevant to the contents of this post.
Not 100% sure I grok what philh meant in the first place, but I also want to note that I didn’t mean for my example-from-fiction to precisely match what I interpreted philh to mean. It was just an easily-accessible example from thinking about the show and game theory.
I do happen to also think there are generalizable lessons from that, which apply to both punishment and pigouvian tax. But that was sort of accidental. (i.e. I quickly searched my brain for the most relevant seeming fictional example, found one that seemed relevant, and it happened to be reasonably relevant)
One could implement a monetary tax that involves shame and social stigma, which’d feel more like being punched. One could also have a culture where being punched comes with less stigma, and is a quick “take your lumps” sort of thing. There are benefits and tradeoffs to wielding shame/stigma/dominance as part of a punishment strategy. In all cases though, you’re trying to impose a cost on an action that you want to see less of.