Although this is a topic in which I am quite interested (given my own background), I am downvoting this post on account of the following needless provocation:
20th-century developments in orchestral music killed orchestral music
If you’re going to casually toss out something like this, the least you can do is be clear about what you mean. The last time I checked, orchestral music was still being written and played. (Three guesses how I might know this.)
Actually, there are ways of interpreting that statement in such a way that I would agree with it. Based on previous comments of yours, however, I doubt that’s what you intended.
No, I think I meant just what you think I did. Orchestral music is dead. Name one great composer since Stravinsky. With the money we spend on music, and the number of composers trained, we could have had a dozen, maybe a hundred, Beethovens since Stravinsky. What do we have? John Williams and Danny Elfman.
There may be great orchestral composers out there somewhere, but the orchestral music scene is too dead to find them.
All these and many more have written important works for the orchestral medium, and all were born after Stravinsky...indeed, all of the above list except Sessions were born in the 20th century.
I really, honestly, don’t want to be rude or confrontational, but...
...the fact that you would cite John Williams and Danny Elfman (both of whom work in the film/television industry) as your idea of the contemporary orchestral composer shows how completely uninformed you are. It’s as if there’s a whole entire field of human activity of whose existence you are entirely unaware.
Now, no one should be expected to know about everything. But Eliezer’s point about science (http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/10/no-one-knows-wh.html) generalizes: there’s a whole, wide world of stuff out there. Yes, art music has a PR problem...but then, so does science, at least among the general public. I presume people here, including yourself, know better in the case of science, so what gives?
I ask the following not (merely) as a rhetorical question, but out of a genuine desire for insight: what on Earth gave you the impression that you were in a position to judge the state of contemporary orchestral music?
There may be great orchestral composers out there somewhere, but the orchestral music scene is too dead to find them.
Just in the past few years, James Levine at the Boston Symphony has been commissioning and premiering a whole series of new orchestral works by living American composers, including Carter and Babbitt. Again, just to take an elite example.
Indeed, the aggravating nature of the offhanded comment you responded to was what got me off my butt to create said blog in the first place—there’ll be a lot more where that comes from, though. The same standards of rationality that we ask of everything else can apply to discourse surrounding music, even though that seems (incredibly) to be non-obvious to many otherwise very rational people.
Although this is a topic in which I am quite interested (given my own background), I am downvoting this post on account of the following needless provocation:
If you’re going to casually toss out something like this, the least you can do is be clear about what you mean. The last time I checked, orchestral music was still being written and played. (Three guesses how I might know this.)
Actually, there are ways of interpreting that statement in such a way that I would agree with it. Based on previous comments of yours, however, I doubt that’s what you intended.
No, I think I meant just what you think I did. Orchestral music is dead. Name one great composer since Stravinsky. With the money we spend on music, and the number of composers trained, we could have had a dozen, maybe a hundred, Beethovens since Stravinsky. What do we have? John Williams and Danny Elfman.
There may be great orchestral composers out there somewhere, but the orchestral music scene is too dead to find them.
Are you serious?
Just restricting ourselves to the cream of the crop:
Boulez, Carter, Babbitt, Sessions, Berio, Nono, Ligeti,...
All these and many more have written important works for the orchestral medium, and all were born after Stravinsky...indeed, all of the above list except Sessions were born in the 20th century.
I really, honestly, don’t want to be rude or confrontational, but...
...the fact that you would cite John Williams and Danny Elfman (both of whom work in the film/television industry) as your idea of the contemporary orchestral composer shows how completely uninformed you are. It’s as if there’s a whole entire field of human activity of whose existence you are entirely unaware.
Now, no one should be expected to know about everything. But Eliezer’s point about science (http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/10/no-one-knows-wh.html) generalizes: there’s a whole, wide world of stuff out there. Yes, art music has a PR problem...but then, so does science, at least among the general public. I presume people here, including yourself, know better in the case of science, so what gives?
I ask the following not (merely) as a rhetorical question, but out of a genuine desire for insight: what on Earth gave you the impression that you were in a position to judge the state of contemporary orchestral music?
Just in the past few years, James Levine at the Boston Symphony has been commissioning and premiering a whole series of new orchestral works by living American composers, including Carter and Babbitt. Again, just to take an elite example.
Appreciate this. I’ve posted to similar effect on my nascent blog, The Grouchy Musicologist: http://grouchymusicologist.wordpress.com/2009/03/20/20th-century-developments-in-orchestral-music-killed-orchestral-music/
Indeed, the aggravating nature of the offhanded comment you responded to was what got me off my butt to create said blog in the first place—there’ll be a lot more where that comes from, though. The same standards of rationality that we ask of everything else can apply to discourse surrounding music, even though that seems (incredibly) to be non-obvious to many otherwise very rational people.