Yes. In fact, 2 strictly contains both 1 and 3, by virtue of setting the discount rate to either 0 or 1.
Future actions are usually very important influences when choosing the current action.
But not strictly as important as the utility of the outcome of the current action. The amount by which future actions are less important than the outcome of the current action, and the methods by which we determine that, are what we mean when we say discount rates.
Yes. In fact, 2 strictly contains both 1 and 3, by virtue of setting the discount rate to either 0 or 1.
That helps understand the options. I am not sure I had enough info to figure out what you meant before.
1 corresponds to eating chocolate gateau all day and not brushing your teeth—not very realistic as you say. 3 looks like an option containing infinite numbers—and 2 is what all practical agents actually do.
However, I don’t think this captures what we were talking about. Pragmatic utility functions are necessarily temporally discounted—due to resource limitations and other effects. The issue is more whether ideal utility functions can be expected to be so discounted. I can’t think why they should be—and can think of several reasons why they shouldn’t be—which we have already covered.
Infinity is surely not a problem—you can just maximise utility over T years and let T increase in an unbounded fashion. The uncertainty principle limits the predictions of embedded agents in practice—so T won’t ever become too large to deal with.
However, I don’t think this captures what we were talking about. Pragmatic utility functions are necessarily temporally discounted—due to resource limitations and other effects.
My understanding is that “pragmatic utility functions” are supposed to be approximations to “ideal utility functions”—preferable only because the “pragmatic” are effectively computable whereas the ideal are not.
Our argument is that we see nothing constraining ideal utility functions to be finite unless you allow discounting at the ideal level. And if ideal utilities are infinite, then pragmatic utilities that approximate them must be infinite too. And comparison of infinite utilities in the hope of detecting finite differences cannot usefully guide choice.
Hence, we believe that discounting at the ideal level is inevitable. Particularly if we are talking about potentially immortal agents (or mortal agents who care about an infinite future).
Your last paragraph made no sense. Are you claiming that the consequence of actions made today must inevitably have negligible effect upon the distant future? A rather fatalistic stance to find in a forum dealing with existential risk. And not particularly realistic, either.
You seem obsessed with infinity :-( What about the universal heat death? Forget about infinity—just consider whether we want to discount on a scale of 1 year, 10 years, 100 years, 1,000 years, 10,000 years—or whatever.
I think “ideal” short-term discounting is potentially problematical. Once we are out to discounting on a billion year timescale, that is well into the “how many angels dance on the head of a pin” territory—from my perspective.
Some of the causes of instrumental discounting look very difficult to overcome—even for a superintelligence. The future naturally gets discounted to the extent that you can’t predict and control it—and many phenomena (e.g. the weather) are very challenging to predict very far into the future—unless you can bring them actively under your control.
Are you claiming that the consequence of actions made today must inevitably have negligible effect upon the distant future?
No, The idea was that predicting those consequences is often hard—and it gets harder the further out you go. Long term predictions thus often don’t add much to what short-term ones give you.
Yes. In fact, 2 strictly contains both 1 and 3, by virtue of setting the discount rate to either 0 or 1.
But not strictly as important as the utility of the outcome of the current action. The amount by which future actions are less important than the outcome of the current action, and the methods by which we determine that, are what we mean when we say discount rates.
That helps understand the options. I am not sure I had enough info to figure out what you meant before.
1 corresponds to eating chocolate gateau all day and not brushing your teeth—not very realistic as you say. 3 looks like an option containing infinite numbers—and 2 is what all practical agents actually do.
However, I don’t think this captures what we were talking about. Pragmatic utility functions are necessarily temporally discounted—due to resource limitations and other effects. The issue is more whether ideal utility functions can be expected to be so discounted. I can’t think why they should be—and can think of several reasons why they shouldn’t be—which we have already covered.
Infinity is surely not a problem—you can just maximise utility over T years and let T increase in an unbounded fashion. The uncertainty principle limits the predictions of embedded agents in practice—so T won’t ever become too large to deal with.
My understanding is that “pragmatic utility functions” are supposed to be approximations to “ideal utility functions”—preferable only because the “pragmatic” are effectively computable whereas the ideal are not.
Our argument is that we see nothing constraining ideal utility functions to be finite unless you allow discounting at the ideal level. And if ideal utilities are infinite, then pragmatic utilities that approximate them must be infinite too. And comparison of infinite utilities in the hope of detecting finite differences cannot usefully guide choice. Hence, we believe that discounting at the ideal level is inevitable. Particularly if we are talking about potentially immortal agents (or mortal agents who care about an infinite future).
Your last paragraph made no sense. Are you claiming that the consequence of actions made today must inevitably have negligible effect upon the distant future? A rather fatalistic stance to find in a forum dealing with existential risk. And not particularly realistic, either.
You seem obsessed with infinity :-( What about the universal heat death? Forget about infinity—just consider whether we want to discount on a scale of 1 year, 10 years, 100 years, 1,000 years, 10,000 years—or whatever.
I think “ideal” short-term discounting is potentially problematical. Once we are out to discounting on a billion year timescale, that is well into the “how many angels dance on the head of a pin” territory—from my perspective.
Some of the causes of instrumental discounting look very difficult to overcome—even for a superintelligence. The future naturally gets discounted to the extent that you can’t predict and control it—and many phenomena (e.g. the weather) are very challenging to predict very far into the future—unless you can bring them actively under your control.
No, The idea was that predicting those consequences is often hard—and it gets harder the further out you go. Long term predictions thus often don’t add much to what short-term ones give you.
Flippantly: we’re going to have billions of years to find a solution to that problem.