I have the feeling that both you and Valentine mix the concept of Looking together with no-self even through they are independent for each other.
Both me and Valentine said that no-self is oneof the things that you can Look at, but it’s not the only one, and that no-self and Looking are distinct and independent concepts?
Or at least Val never specifically mentioned no-self, but he did mostly endorse Ben’s comment which summarized Val’s position as
I want to get you to experience enlightenment. Not because enlightenment is valuable, but because it’s hard, and the skill of achieving enlightenment generalises to learning a bunch of other things (that are similarly hard).
And likewise, I mentioned that all of the stuff about overcoming suffering and figuring out no-self, is just one particular special case of Looking:
Understanding suffering is a special case of Looking, but a sufficiently important one that it deserves to be briefly discussed in some detail.
So, I don’t think that we disagree on that front.
That said, I feel like your post is confusing “renunciation of the self” with “renunciation in general”. At least my experience so far doesn’t suggest that getting an understanding of the nature of the self would require renunciation in general: rather, seeing that the self is an arbitrary construct which you don’t need to take too seriously, can enable you to play with it in a tantric fashion. Which is an idea that I got from Val’s post where he talked about doing exactly that!
(I also have a recollection of Chapman writing about how enlightenment [which I interpret as internalizing the three marks on a deep level] is a prerequisite for doing tantra and dzogchen properly, since before that you’re too wedded to your fabrications and take them too seriously to play with them; but I don’t recall where I remember seeing that, so could misremember. I’ll ping him.)
[FWOMP Summoned spirit appears in Kaj’s chalk octogram. Gouts of eldritch flame, etc. Spirit squints around at unfamiliar environment bemusedly. Takes off glasses, holds them up to the candlelight, grimaces, wipes glasses on clothing, replaces on nose. Grunts. Speaks:]
According to one classification of disparate doctrines, Buddhism can be divided into Vajrayana (Tantra plus Dzogchen) and Sutrayana (everything else, except maybe Zen). In this classification, Sutrayana aims at “emptiness,” which is a generalization of the Three Marks, including anatman (non-self). The central method of Sutrayana is renunciation. Renunciation of the self is a major aspect. For Sutrayana, clear sustained perception of anatman (or emptiness more generally) is enlightenment, by definition.
For Buddhist Tantra, experience of emptiness is the “base” or starting point. That’s the sense in which “enlightenment is the prerequisite”—but it’s enlightenment as understood in Sutrayana. Whereas Sutrayana is the path from “form” (ordinary appearances) to emptiness, Tantra is the path from emptiness to the non-duality of emptiness and form. The aim is to perceive everything as both simultaneously. That non-dual vision is the definition of enlightenment within Tantra. The “duality” referred to here is the duality between emptiness and form, rather than the duality between self and other—which is what is overcome in Sutrayana. The non-dual vision that is the end-point of Tantra, is then the base or starting point for Dzogchen.
seeing that the self is an arbitrary construct which you don’t need to take too seriously, can enable you to play with it in a tantric fashion
Yes, this is a Vajrayana viewpoint. For Sutrayana, the self is non-existent, or at least “empty”; for Vajrayana, it is empty form. That is, “self” is a label applied to various phenomena, which overall are found to be insubstantial, transient, boundaryless, discontinuous, and ambiguous—and yet which exhibit heft, durability, continence, extension, and specificity. This mild paradox is quite amusing—a starting point for tantric play.
I’ll say a bit more about “self” in response to Sarah Constantin’s comment on this post.
When it comes to reading articles here on LW I don’t get the feeling that everything that could be said is said. Pleading directly for getting rid of the self wouldn’t fit into the overton window. Just like issues regarding the t-word or the e-word are unlikely to be expressed. To be fair there’s a bit of discussion about the e-word but not in this context.
The word arbitrary is a bit suspect to me. If I would hear a rationalist who says that his love for his wife is arbitrary because it’s what evolution programmed into him my instinct would be that there’s an issue with how he’s in relationship.
I get the same sentiment when I hear you speak about how your self is arbitrary in this context.
When it comes to the reports of memory loss in the comments of the PNSE paper (and Richard’s comment) I don’t see why that would come with the ability to look but I can see that cutting connections to the self could lead to such issues.
More practically I have the concern of taking meditation advice from Buddhists who’s goal is a state of detachment from the self or simply following what they recommend (and what’s designed for the outcome of creating detachment) might be problematic.
Of course I might also very well have misunderstood where you or Valentine are and it’s not an easy topic to talk about, especially in a text-based public venue like this.
When it comes to reading articles here on LW I don’t get the feeling that everything that could be said is said. Pleading directly for getting rid of the self wouldn’t fit into the overton window.
Well, if you suspect that I have a hidden agenda which I’m not stating for strategic reasons, I don’t know if I can say anything that would convince you otherwise.
I can only say that I have no interest in broad renunciation, and that at least everything that I’ve been doing so far—including my no-self experiences—has only felt liberating; to the extent that it has affected my ability to influence the world, it has felt like I’ve gotten more agency and ability to influence the world, not less. (Though a lot of it has been purely neutral too.) If some meditation technique starts feeling like it’s reducing my ability to achieve things in the world, then I will stop using that technique and try some other technique instead.
Re: arbitrary—I don’t think I have the same connotations for the word as you do. A lot of things can be arbitrary and still be valuable.
Both me and Valentine said that no-self is one of the things that you can Look at, but it’s not the only one, and that no-self and Looking are distinct and independent concepts?
Or at least Val never specifically mentioned no-self, but he did mostly endorse Ben’s comment which summarized Val’s position as
And likewise, I mentioned that all of the stuff about overcoming suffering and figuring out no-self, is just one particular special case of Looking:
So, I don’t think that we disagree on that front.
That said, I feel like your post is confusing “renunciation of the self” with “renunciation in general”. At least my experience so far doesn’t suggest that getting an understanding of the nature of the self would require renunciation in general: rather, seeing that the self is an arbitrary construct which you don’t need to take too seriously, can enable you to play with it in a tantric fashion. Which is an idea that I got from Val’s post where he talked about doing exactly that!
(I also have a recollection of Chapman writing about how enlightenment [which I interpret as internalizing the three marks on a deep level] is a prerequisite for doing tantra and dzogchen properly, since before that you’re too wedded to your fabrications and take them too seriously to play with them; but I don’t recall where I remember seeing that, so could misremember. I’ll ping him.)
[FWOMP Summoned spirit appears in Kaj’s chalk octogram. Gouts of eldritch flame, etc. Spirit squints around at unfamiliar environment bemusedly. Takes off glasses, holds them up to the candlelight, grimaces, wipes glasses on clothing, replaces on nose. Grunts. Speaks:]
Buddhism is a diverse family of religions, with distinct conceptions of enlightenment. These seem to be quite different and contradictory.
According to one classification of disparate doctrines, Buddhism can be divided into Vajrayana (Tantra plus Dzogchen) and Sutrayana (everything else, except maybe Zen). In this classification, Sutrayana aims at “emptiness,” which is a generalization of the Three Marks, including anatman (non-self). The central method of Sutrayana is renunciation. Renunciation of the self is a major aspect. For Sutrayana, clear sustained perception of anatman (or emptiness more generally) is enlightenment, by definition.
For Buddhist Tantra, experience of emptiness is the “base” or starting point. That’s the sense in which “enlightenment is the prerequisite”—but it’s enlightenment as understood in Sutrayana. Whereas Sutrayana is the path from “form” (ordinary appearances) to emptiness, Tantra is the path from emptiness to the non-duality of emptiness and form. The aim is to perceive everything as both simultaneously. That non-dual vision is the definition of enlightenment within Tantra. The “duality” referred to here is the duality between emptiness and form, rather than the duality between self and other—which is what is overcome in Sutrayana. The non-dual vision that is the end-point of Tantra, is then the base or starting point for Dzogchen.
(Probably the best thing I’ve written about this is “Beyond Emptiness: Zen, Tantra, and Dzogchen.” It may not be very clear but I hope at least it is entertaining. “Sutra, Tantra, and the Modern Worldview” is less fun but more concrete.)
Yes, this is a Vajrayana viewpoint. For Sutrayana, the self is non-existent, or at least “empty”; for Vajrayana, it is empty form. That is, “self” is a label applied to various phenomena, which overall are found to be insubstantial, transient, boundaryless, discontinuous, and ambiguous—and yet which exhibit heft, durability, continence, extension, and specificity. This mild paradox is quite amusing—a starting point for tantric play.
I’ll say a bit more about “self” in response to Sarah Constantin’s comment on this post.
When it comes to reading articles here on LW I don’t get the feeling that everything that could be said is said.
Pleading directly for getting rid of the self wouldn’t fit into the overton window. Just like issues regarding the t-word or the e-word are unlikely to be expressed. To be fair there’s a bit of discussion about the e-word but not in this context.
The word arbitrary is a bit suspect to me. If I would hear a rationalist who says that his love for his wife is arbitrary because it’s what evolution programmed into him my instinct would be that there’s an issue with how he’s in relationship.
I get the same sentiment when I hear you speak about how your self is arbitrary in this context.
When it comes to the reports of memory loss in the comments of the PNSE paper (and Richard’s comment) I don’t see why that would come with the ability to look but I can see that cutting connections to the self could lead to such issues.
More practically I have the concern of taking meditation advice from Buddhists who’s goal is a state of detachment from the self or simply following what they recommend (and what’s designed for the outcome of creating detachment) might be problematic.
Of course I might also very well have misunderstood where you or Valentine are and it’s not an easy topic to talk about, especially in a text-based public venue like this.
Well, if you suspect that I have a hidden agenda which I’m not stating for strategic reasons, I don’t know if I can say anything that would convince you otherwise.
I can only say that I have no interest in broad renunciation, and that at least everything that I’ve been doing so far—including my no-self experiences—has only felt liberating; to the extent that it has affected my ability to influence the world, it has felt like I’ve gotten more agency and ability to influence the world, not less. (Though a lot of it has been purely neutral too.) If some meditation technique starts feeling like it’s reducing my ability to achieve things in the world, then I will stop using that technique and try some other technique instead.
Re: arbitrary—I don’t think I have the same connotations for the word as you do. A lot of things can be arbitrary and still be valuable.
You don’t need to have an agenda of wanting to renounce the self to practice techniques that have that result.