I think your article is poorly written, and its unclarity is causing confusion between you, me, and the others.
Discourse norms, some of which govern who is allowed in the conversation, are relevant. It is not a non sequitur. It is relevant, because you are making normative claims about discourse and what kinds of claims interlocutors are supposed to begin with. Specifically, one claim you are making is that interlocutors are supposed to begin with content-relevant, information-optimized claims.
I’ve offered a contrary consideration. Some interlocutors rightly begin with permissibility claims about who is allowed into the conversation at all. I think this is where your poor writing runs us afoul. You don’t sufficiently describe your one and only discursive example:
“here’s a common claim where it’s just a matter of time until some piece of information dismisses it: ‘you’re just saying that because you’re white.’”
Are these interlocutors already passed the pre-discursive permissibility claims stage? Are they literally just now speaking, as though the objector overheard someone speaking, thought that the speaker was participating in something for which they have no permission, and is claiming a norm violation? It is not clear.
Now that I have read more of your comments, your intention is clearer. I think you are claiming that “Epistemic stalling” occurs only after pre-discursive permissibility claims, only during content-relevant critical discussion of knowledge and belief claims—only during active truth-seeking. Am I right this is what you are trying to say?
If so, my objection is that the kinds of language used during active truth-seeking is often indistinguishable from the kinds of language used during pre-discursive considerations. “You aren’t allowed in this conversation because you are white.” That claim isn’t epistemic stalling so long as it is made prior to active truth-seeking. So, whether a claim is epistemic stalling depends on the stage of in discourse the claim is made. That should be a reasonable objection to your analysis of epistemic stalling.
A second example is from one of my previous comments. If I am distracting a security guard by saying things like, “Oh, you are just saying that because you are white,” what I am doing is stalling, but not epistemic stalling, because I’m not engaged with the security guard in a mutual project of active truth-seeking. Again, it turns out that whether a claim ”… because you are white …” is epistemic stalling depends at least in part on where the claim is made. Your article does not discuss these kinds of issues. If you feel strongly about the topic, I would suggest revising this article with a keen eye on fleshing out some of these over-looked details.
Alfred, to be frank, your article is unclear and poorly written. Dagon, for example, thinks the political/non-political examples matter. They think that partly because your article is unclear. You should take more seriously their confusion as what-not-to-do in the future. Write with greater clarity.
I think you write unclearly on semi-intentional purpose. Your communication strategy seems to be: write something unclear, then explain why the audience (in this case commenters) misunderstood you. That’s how you responded to Christian, to Dagon, and to Big Steve.
I think you are wrong about epistemic stalling, but you’ve only explained why I misunderstood what you said. That’s a non-sequitur response on your part.
Consider your red/purple/fuschia example you gave to Dagon. What truthseeking activity is going on in the example? They are trying to figure out which color pops? That’s a silly way to interpret their conversation. They’re trying to decide which colors to wear—that’s not a truthseeking activity.
Also, after further thought, isn’t calling out the identity issue about “argon” and “Big Steve” epistemic stalling? Here we are, you and I, engaged in a truthseeking activity & you offer an objection easily refuted given enough time. How isn’t that epistemic stalling?
I think your article is poorly written, and its unclarity is causing confusion between you, me, and the others.
Discourse norms, some of which govern who is allowed in the conversation, are relevant. It is not a non sequitur. It is relevant, because you are making normative claims about discourse and what kinds of claims interlocutors are supposed to begin with. Specifically, one claim you are making is that interlocutors are supposed to begin with content-relevant, information-optimized claims.
I’ve offered a contrary consideration. Some interlocutors rightly begin with permissibility claims about who is allowed into the conversation at all. I think this is where your poor writing runs us afoul. You don’t sufficiently describe your one and only discursive example:
“here’s a common claim where it’s just a matter of time until some piece of information dismisses it: ‘you’re just saying that because you’re white.’”
Are these interlocutors already passed the pre-discursive permissibility claims stage? Are they literally just now speaking, as though the objector overheard someone speaking, thought that the speaker was participating in something for which they have no permission, and is claiming a norm violation? It is not clear.
Now that I have read more of your comments, your intention is clearer. I think you are claiming that “Epistemic stalling” occurs only after pre-discursive permissibility claims, only during content-relevant critical discussion of knowledge and belief claims—only during active truth-seeking. Am I right this is what you are trying to say?
If so, my objection is that the kinds of language used during active truth-seeking is often indistinguishable from the kinds of language used during pre-discursive considerations. “You aren’t allowed in this conversation because you are white.” That claim isn’t epistemic stalling so long as it is made prior to active truth-seeking. So, whether a claim is epistemic stalling depends on the stage of in discourse the claim is made. That should be a reasonable objection to your analysis of epistemic stalling.
A second example is from one of my previous comments. If I am distracting a security guard by saying things like, “Oh, you are just saying that because you are white,” what I am doing is stalling, but not epistemic stalling, because I’m not engaged with the security guard in a mutual project of active truth-seeking. Again, it turns out that whether a claim ”… because you are white …” is epistemic stalling depends at least in part on where the claim is made. Your article does not discuss these kinds of issues. If you feel strongly about the topic, I would suggest revising this article with a keen eye on fleshing out some of these over-looked details.
argon, please use a consistent name across all media. if I had known this Big Steve account was you, it would have saved me a lot of time.
Why should it matter who Big Steve is?
Alfred, to be frank, your article is unclear and poorly written. Dagon, for example, thinks the political/non-political examples matter. They think that partly because your article is unclear. You should take more seriously their confusion as what-not-to-do in the future. Write with greater clarity.
I think you write unclearly on semi-intentional purpose. Your communication strategy seems to be: write something unclear, then explain why the audience (in this case commenters) misunderstood you. That’s how you responded to Christian, to Dagon, and to Big Steve.
I think you are wrong about epistemic stalling, but you’ve only explained why I misunderstood what you said. That’s a non-sequitur response on your part.
Consider your red/purple/fuschia example you gave to Dagon. What truthseeking activity is going on in the example? They are trying to figure out which color pops? That’s a silly way to interpret their conversation. They’re trying to decide which colors to wear—that’s not a truthseeking activity.
Also, after further thought, isn’t calling out the identity issue about “argon” and “Big Steve” epistemic stalling? Here we are, you and I, engaged in a truthseeking activity & you offer an objection easily refuted given enough time. How isn’t that epistemic stalling?