This egregore wants everyone to feel persecuted. … Do the rationalists feel persecuted / victimized? Oh yeah. … So they haven’t successfully seen through this one.
Note that this doesn’t follow. It might be, for example, that the egregore causes (some) people to feel persecuted by causing them to be persecuted.
(Admittedly I’m not sure I know what it means to “see through” an egregore. Like, if you “see through” capitalism, you… recognize capitalism as an egregore that demands etc.? You recognize that there may be other ways to organize a society, though you may or may not think any of those other ways are preferable all things considered? You want fewer things that you don’t need?
But presumably, “seeing through” it doesn’t extract you from your capitalist society, if you live in one; you still need a job to get money, and you still need money to purchase goods and services, and so on. And if you don’t live in a capitalist society but a capitalist society is coming to take your land and separate you from your children, “seeing through” capitalism doesn’t protect you from that either.
And so presumably, “seeing through” an egregore that wants you to feel persecuted, doesn’t make you not-persecuted. It might make you not-feel-persecuted if you’re in-fact not persecuted.)
I dunno if I was clear enough here about what it means to feel persecuted.
So the way I’m using that phrase, ‘feeling persecuted’ is not desirable whether you are actually being persecuted or not.
‘Feeling persecuted’ means feeling helpless, powerless, or otherwise victimized. Feeling like the universe is against you or your tribe, and that things are (in some sense) inherently bad and may forever be bad, and that nothing can be done.
If, indeed, you are part of a group that has fewer rights and privileges than the dominant groups, you can acknowledge to yourself “my people don’t have the same rights as other people” but you don’t have to feel any sense of persecution around that. You can just see that it is true and happening, without feeling helpless and like something is inherently broken or that you are inherently broken.
Seeing through the egregore would help a person realize that ‘oh there is an egregore feeding on my beliefs about being persecuted but it’s not actually a fundamental truth about the world; things can actually be different; and I’m not defined by my victimhood. maybe i should stop feeding this egregore with these thoughts and feelings that don’t actually help anything or anyone and isn’t really an accurate representation of reality anyway.’
So I don’t really want to get into this, my note was about the structure of the argument rather than factual claims about the world. But...
I think I feel motte-and-baileyed? When I read your original comment with the term “feel persecuted” I’m like “eh, dunno, sounds plausible I guess?”. When I read it trying to substitute in the definition you give I’m like ”...mm, skeptical”.
Like I get that jargon sometimes just has that effect, I’m not currently saying you shouldn’t use that term with that meaning. But that’s my reaction.
(If you do want a different hook to use, it sounds like “feel persecuted, and also be clinically depressed” is tongue-in-cheek kinda close to what you describe? Though bringing in the concept of “depression”, and especially “clinical” depression, may not help see things clearly either.)
No, it’s definitely not about being depressed. That’s very far from it. But I also don’t want to argue about the claims here. Seems maybe beside the point.
I think I could reword my original argument in a way that wouldn’t be a problem. I just wasn’t careful in my languaging, but I personally think it’s fine? I think you might be reading a lot into my usage of the word “So”.
Note that this doesn’t follow. It might be, for example, that the egregore causes (some) people to feel persecuted by causing them to be persecuted.
(Admittedly I’m not sure I know what it means to “see through” an egregore. Like, if you “see through” capitalism, you… recognize capitalism as an egregore that demands etc.? You recognize that there may be other ways to organize a society, though you may or may not think any of those other ways are preferable all things considered? You want fewer things that you don’t need?
But presumably, “seeing through” it doesn’t extract you from your capitalist society, if you live in one; you still need a job to get money, and you still need money to purchase goods and services, and so on. And if you don’t live in a capitalist society but a capitalist society is coming to take your land and separate you from your children, “seeing through” capitalism doesn’t protect you from that either.
And so presumably, “seeing through” an egregore that wants you to feel persecuted, doesn’t make you not-persecuted. It might make you not-feel-persecuted if you’re in-fact not persecuted.)
I dunno if I was clear enough here about what it means to feel persecuted.
So the way I’m using that phrase, ‘feeling persecuted’ is not desirable whether you are actually being persecuted or not.
‘Feeling persecuted’ means feeling helpless, powerless, or otherwise victimized. Feeling like the universe is against you or your tribe, and that things are (in some sense) inherently bad and may forever be bad, and that nothing can be done.
If, indeed, you are part of a group that has fewer rights and privileges than the dominant groups, you can acknowledge to yourself “my people don’t have the same rights as other people” but you don’t have to feel any sense of persecution around that. You can just see that it is true and happening, without feeling helpless and like something is inherently broken or that you are inherently broken.
Seeing through the egregore would help a person realize that ‘oh there is an egregore feeding on my beliefs about being persecuted but it’s not actually a fundamental truth about the world; things can actually be different; and I’m not defined by my victimhood. maybe i should stop feeding this egregore with these thoughts and feelings that don’t actually help anything or anyone and isn’t really an accurate representation of reality anyway.’
So I don’t really want to get into this, my note was about the structure of the argument rather than factual claims about the world. But...
I think I feel motte-and-baileyed? When I read your original comment with the term “feel persecuted” I’m like “eh, dunno, sounds plausible I guess?”. When I read it trying to substitute in the definition you give I’m like ”...mm, skeptical”.
Like I get that jargon sometimes just has that effect, I’m not currently saying you shouldn’t use that term with that meaning. But that’s my reaction.
(If you do want a different hook to use, it sounds like “feel persecuted, and also be clinically depressed” is tongue-in-cheek kinda close to what you describe? Though bringing in the concept of “depression”, and especially “clinical” depression, may not help see things clearly either.)
No, it’s definitely not about being depressed. That’s very far from it. But I also don’t want to argue about the claims here. Seems maybe beside the point.
I think I could reword my original argument in a way that wouldn’t be a problem. I just wasn’t careful in my languaging, but I personally think it’s fine? I think you might be reading a lot into my usage of the word “So”.