Can you think of any such scenario that doesn’t involve other actions forbidden by the same religion?
Yes:
1) a totally innocent married woman who has kept herself “pure” with only her husband… and contracts HIV because he is unfaithful
2) a woman who is raped by an HIV positive person (religious or otherwise)
3) a man who kept himself “pure” for marriage, only to discover that his now-wife hadn’t “kept herself for her husband” and contracted HIV during her own pre-marital sex
4) a person who converted to the religion later in life… and had unprotected sex before they converted
5) some poor young thing who contracts it during unprotected oral sex because they’re told that “it’s not really sex” and therefore not considered “impure” by their religion’s standards
6) a person who shares needles with somebody else… no prohibition against opiates in the bible mate
...I’m sure I could go on.
Argument from personal incredulity is generally not a strong stance to take.
It seems like you misunderstood my question. I asked about examples of HIV transmission scenarios that: (1) would be prevented by the use of condoms, and (2) don’t involve any actions (by any of the parties involved) that are also prohibited by all the major religions that prohibit condom use. I don’t see a single item on your list that meets both conditions.
I’m not sure how useful it is to search for sexual transmission scenarios within a reference class populated entirely by the chaste.
Well, originally I suggested one scenario that would seemingly fall under this. I’m genuinely curious if someone can think of any others. Your suggestion of the Shiite temporary marriages is a good one, though based on some casual googling I just did, it appears that condoms are permitted by this particular religion.
Actually I disagree. scenarios 1 through 5 are all about sexual acts that do not involve condom-use, but through which an otherwise “innocent” person could contract HIV.
Scenario 6 involves a person who contracts HIV and could then go on to spread said infection to his/her otherwise innocent partner due to the restrictions on condom use, but yes, does not directly describe the infection due to forbidden condom usage. I should have mentioned Mr 6′s wife instead—at which it too becomes relevant.
AFAICT, they are all relevant to the current question.
As to part 2:
The fact that some of the acts involve other people who are not following the “purity laws” of the religion makes no difference—in each scenario, the person getting infected has followed all the laws correctly. That’s the point.
Forbidding condom use does not necessarily protect the people that follow the rules.
Surely the ‘any actions (by any of the parties involved)’ isn’t relevant for casting blame/responsibility here? Christianity recognises, or rather emphasises, that people do constantly fall short of the values, and encourages repentence and continuing to follow the same rules.
I don’t know whether churches would advise a repentent person who had cheated or had sex before marriage to then be celibate within their marriage. But if they tell them to keep having sex without protection then that specific action can be blamed for the results. A system of behaviour that relies on being universalised to make any sense is flawed. One encouraged by a religion that is fully aware that people constantly fall short of its commandments could be regarded as culpable.
I don’t know whether churches would advise a repentent person who had cheated or had sex before marriage to then be celibate within their marriage. But if they tell them to keep having sex without protection then that specific action can be blamed for the results.
Only if they tell them to keep having sex without protection even if you have an STD. Or, perhaps, forbid testing for STDs.
It wasn’t my intention to make or imply any value judgments and blame assignments in this context. I just asked if someone can think of a scenario that meets these conditions, as a mere question of fact and logic.
As in somebody gets AIDS from their first partner (who gets it from whatever, depending on how far back we count as ‘parties involved’: perhaps a cheating grandparent or if that still counts then transfusion etc.)
Yes:
1) a totally innocent married woman who has kept herself “pure” with only her husband… and contracts HIV because he is unfaithful
2) a woman who is raped by an HIV positive person (religious or otherwise)
3) a man who kept himself “pure” for marriage, only to discover that his now-wife hadn’t “kept herself for her husband” and contracted HIV during her own pre-marital sex
4) a person who converted to the religion later in life… and had unprotected sex before they converted
5) some poor young thing who contracts it during unprotected oral sex because they’re told that “it’s not really sex” and therefore not considered “impure” by their religion’s standards
6) a person who shares needles with somebody else… no prohibition against opiates in the bible mate
...I’m sure I could go on.
Argument from personal incredulity is generally not a strong stance to take.
It seems like you misunderstood my question. I asked about examples of HIV transmission scenarios that: (1) would be prevented by the use of condoms, and (2) don’t involve any actions (by any of the parties involved) that are also prohibited by all the major religions that prohibit condom use. I don’t see a single item on your list that meets both conditions.
I’m not sure how useful it is to search for sexual transmission scenarios within a reference class populated entirely by the chaste.
(Actually, the Shi’a practice of nikah mut‘ah seems to qualify, but that’s rather obscure by the standards of this discussion.)
Well, originally I suggested one scenario that would seemingly fall under this. I’m genuinely curious if someone can think of any others. Your suggestion of the Shiite temporary marriages is a good one, though based on some casual googling I just did, it appears that condoms are permitted by this particular religion.
Actually I disagree. scenarios 1 through 5 are all about sexual acts that do not involve condom-use, but through which an otherwise “innocent” person could contract HIV.
Scenario 6 involves a person who contracts HIV and could then go on to spread said infection to his/her otherwise innocent partner due to the restrictions on condom use, but yes, does not directly describe the infection due to forbidden condom usage. I should have mentioned Mr 6′s wife instead—at which it too becomes relevant.
AFAICT, they are all relevant to the current question.
As to part 2: The fact that some of the acts involve other people who are not following the “purity laws” of the religion makes no difference—in each scenario, the person getting infected has followed all the laws correctly. That’s the point.
Forbidding condom use does not necessarily protect the people that follow the rules.
Surely the ‘any actions (by any of the parties involved)’ isn’t relevant for casting blame/responsibility here? Christianity recognises, or rather emphasises, that people do constantly fall short of the values, and encourages repentence and continuing to follow the same rules.
I don’t know whether churches would advise a repentent person who had cheated or had sex before marriage to then be celibate within their marriage. But if they tell them to keep having sex without protection then that specific action can be blamed for the results. A system of behaviour that relies on being universalised to make any sense is flawed. One encouraged by a religion that is fully aware that people constantly fall short of its commandments could be regarded as culpable.
Only if they tell them to keep having sex without protection even if you have an STD. Or, perhaps, forbid testing for STDs.
It wasn’t my intention to make or imply any value judgments and blame assignments in this context. I just asked if someone can think of a scenario that meets these conditions, as a mere question of fact and logic.
Oh, fair enough: I was reading back to the ‘how many people were killed by Christian fundamentalists’ question… Sorry!
On your question, am I missing something obvious or would widows/widowers be a real and all-too-likely possibility?
What exact scenario with widows/widowers do you have in mind?
As in somebody gets AIDS from their first partner (who gets it from whatever, depending on how far back we count as ‘parties involved’: perhaps a cheating grandparent or if that still counts then transfusion etc.)
Yes, you’re right, that would be another possibility.