I thought this was a good question, so I took some time to think about it. I am better at recognizing good definitions than generating them, but here goes:
‘Objective’ and ‘subjective’ are about the relevance of something across contexts.
Suppose that there is some closed system X. The objective value of X is its value outside X. The subjective value of X is its value inside X.
For example, if I go to a party and we play a game with play money, then the play money has no objective value. I might care about the game, and have fun playing it with my friends, but it would be a choice whether or not to place any subjective attachment to the money; I think that I wouldn’t and would be rather equanimous about how much money I had in any moment. If I went home and looked carefully at the money to discover that it was actually a foreign currency, then it turns out that the money had objective value after all.
Regarding my value dilemma, the system X is myself. I attach value to many things in X. Some of this attachment feels like a choice, but I hazard that some of this attachment is not really voluntary. (For example, I have mirror neurons.) I would call these attachments ‘intellectual’ and ‘visceral’ respectively.
Generally, I do not have much value for subjective experience. If something only has value in ‘X’, then I have a tendency to negate that as a motivation. I’m not altruistic, I just don’t feel like subjective experience is very important. Upon reflection, I realize that re: social norms, I actually act rather selfishly when I think I’m pursuing something with objective value.
If there’s no objective value, then at the very least I need to do a lot of goal reorganization; losing my intellectual attachments unless they can be recovered as visceral attachments. At the worst, I might feel increasingly like I’m a meaningless closed system of self-generated values. At this point, though, I doubt I’m capable of assimilating an absence of objective value on all levels—my brain might be too old—and for now I’m just academically interested in how self-validation of value works without feeling like its an illusion.
I know this wasn’t your main point, but money doesn’t have objective value, either, by that definition. It only has value in situations where you can trade it for other things. It’s extremely common to encounter such situations, so the limitation is pretty ignorable, but I suspect you’re at least as likely to encounter situations where money isn’t tradeable for goods as you are to encounter situations where your own preferences and values aren’t part of the context.
I used the money analogy because it has a convenient idea of value.
While debating about the use of that analogy, I had already considered it ironic that the US dollar hasn’t had “objective” value since it was disconnected from the value of gold in 1933. Not that gold has objective value unless you use it to make a conductor. But at the level, I start losing track of what I mean by ‘value’. Anyway, it is interesting that the value of the US dollar is exactly an example of humans creating value, echoing Alicorn’s comment.
Real money does have objective value relative to the party, since you can buy things on your way home, but no objective value outside contexts where the money can be exchanged for goods.
If you are a closed system X, and something within system X only has objective value inasmuch as something outside X values it, then does the fact that other people care about you and your ability to achieve your goals help? They are outside X, and while their first-order interests probably never match yours perfectly, there is a general human tendency to care about others’ goals qua others’ goals.
then does the fact that other people care about you and your ability to achieve your goals help?
If you mean that I might value myself and my ability to achieve my goals more because I value other people valuing that, then it does not help. My valuation of their caring is just as subjective as any other value I would have.
On the other hand, perhaps you were suggesting that this mutual caring could be a mechanism for creating objective value, which is kind of in line with what I think. For that matter, I think that my own valuation of something, even without the valuation of others, does create objective value—but that’s a FOOM. I’m trying to imagine reality without that.
If you mean that I might value myself and my ability to achieve my goals more because I value other people valuing that, then it does not help. My valuation of their caring is just as subjective as any other value I would have.
That’s not what I mean. I don’t mean that their caring about you/your goals makes things matter because you care if they care. I mean that if you’re a closed system, and you’re looking for a way outside of yourself to find value in your interests, other people are outside you and may value your interests (directly or indirectly). They would carry on doing this, and this would carry on conferring external value to you and your interests, even if you didn’t give a crap or didn’t know anybody else besides you existed—how objective can you get?
On the other hand, perhaps you were suggesting that this mutual caring could be a mechanism for creating objective value
I don’t think it’s necessary—I think even if you were the only person in the universe, you’d matter, assuming you cared about yourself—and I certainly don’t think it has to be really mutual. Some people can be “free riders” or even altruistic, self-abnegating victims of the scheme without the system ceasing to function. So this is a FOOV? So now it looks like we don’t disagree at all—what was I trying to convince you of, again?
So this is a FOOV? So now it looks like we don’t disagree at all—what was I trying to convince you of, again?
I guess I’m really not sure. I’ll have to think about it a while. What will probably happen is that next time I find myself debating with someone asserting there is no Framework of Objective Value, I will ask them about this case; if minds can create objective value by their value-ing. I will also ask them to clarify what they mean by objective value.
I’m either not sure what you’re trying to do or why you’re trying to do it. What do you mean by FOOM here? Why do you want to imagine reality without it? How does people caring about each other fall into that category?
Can you pick apart what you mean by “objectively”? It seems to be a very load-bearing word here.
I thought this was a good question, so I took some time to think about it. I am better at recognizing good definitions than generating them, but here goes:
‘Objective’ and ‘subjective’ are about the relevance of something across contexts.
Suppose that there is some closed system X. The objective value of X is its value outside X. The subjective value of X is its value inside X.
For example, if I go to a party and we play a game with play money, then the play money has no objective value. I might care about the game, and have fun playing it with my friends, but it would be a choice whether or not to place any subjective attachment to the money; I think that I wouldn’t and would be rather equanimous about how much money I had in any moment. If I went home and looked carefully at the money to discover that it was actually a foreign currency, then it turns out that the money had objective value after all.
Regarding my value dilemma, the system X is myself. I attach value to many things in X. Some of this attachment feels like a choice, but I hazard that some of this attachment is not really voluntary. (For example, I have mirror neurons.) I would call these attachments ‘intellectual’ and ‘visceral’ respectively.
Generally, I do not have much value for subjective experience. If something only has value in ‘X’, then I have a tendency to negate that as a motivation. I’m not altruistic, I just don’t feel like subjective experience is very important. Upon reflection, I realize that re: social norms, I actually act rather selfishly when I think I’m pursuing something with objective value.
If there’s no objective value, then at the very least I need to do a lot of goal reorganization; losing my intellectual attachments unless they can be recovered as visceral attachments. At the worst, I might feel increasingly like I’m a meaningless closed system of self-generated values. At this point, though, I doubt I’m capable of assimilating an absence of objective value on all levels—my brain might be too old—and for now I’m just academically interested in how self-validation of value works without feeling like its an illusion.
I know this wasn’t your main point, but money doesn’t have objective value, either, by that definition. It only has value in situations where you can trade it for other things. It’s extremely common to encounter such situations, so the limitation is pretty ignorable, but I suspect you’re at least as likely to encounter situations where money isn’t tradeable for goods as you are to encounter situations where your own preferences and values aren’t part of the context.
I used the money analogy because it has a convenient idea of value.
While debating about the use of that analogy, I had already considered it ironic that the US dollar hasn’t had “objective” value since it was disconnected from the value of gold in 1933. Not that gold has objective value unless you use it to make a conductor. But at the level, I start losing track of what I mean by ‘value’. Anyway, it is interesting that the value of the US dollar is exactly an example of humans creating value, echoing Alicorn’s comment.
Real money does have objective value relative to the party, since you can buy things on your way home, but no objective value outside contexts where the money can be exchanged for goods.
If you are a closed system X, and something within system X only has objective value inasmuch as something outside X values it, then does the fact that other people care about you and your ability to achieve your goals help? They are outside X, and while their first-order interests probably never match yours perfectly, there is a general human tendency to care about others’ goals qua others’ goals.
If you mean that I might value myself and my ability to achieve my goals more because I value other people valuing that, then it does not help. My valuation of their caring is just as subjective as any other value I would have.
On the other hand, perhaps you were suggesting that this mutual caring could be a mechanism for creating objective value, which is kind of in line with what I think. For that matter, I think that my own valuation of something, even without the valuation of others, does create objective value—but that’s a FOOM. I’m trying to imagine reality without that.
That’s not what I mean. I don’t mean that their caring about you/your goals makes things matter because you care if they care. I mean that if you’re a closed system, and you’re looking for a way outside of yourself to find value in your interests, other people are outside you and may value your interests (directly or indirectly). They would carry on doing this, and this would carry on conferring external value to you and your interests, even if you didn’t give a crap or didn’t know anybody else besides you existed—how objective can you get?
I don’t think it’s necessary—I think even if you were the only person in the universe, you’d matter, assuming you cared about yourself—and I certainly don’t think it has to be really mutual. Some people can be “free riders” or even altruistic, self-abnegating victims of the scheme without the system ceasing to function. So this is a FOOV? So now it looks like we don’t disagree at all—what was I trying to convince you of, again?
I guess I’m really not sure. I’ll have to think about it a while. What will probably happen is that next time I find myself debating with someone asserting there is no Framework of Objective Value, I will ask them about this case; if minds can create objective value by their value-ing. I will also ask them to clarify what they mean by objective value.
Truthfully, I’ve kind of forgotten what this issue I raised is about, probably for a few days or a week.
I’m either not sure what you’re trying to do or why you’re trying to do it. What do you mean by FOOM here? Why do you want to imagine reality without it? How does people caring about each other fall into that category?