Would you still expect that if it turned out that being visibly non-mundane made it more difficult for the “masters” you talk about to achieve their goals?
I understand your point. Perhaps I am being irrational here. A rationality priesthood may be entirely the wrong approach. I do not deny a certain mysticism about what I’m proposing; as Yvain pointed out in the original thread, Eliezer comes across as rather mystical at times, and I share that inclination. I just find that there is great power in mystical modes of thought, and I suspect that incorporating a bit of that would not hurt the efforts of the masters. In fact, it probably has a lot to do with why Eliezer enjoys the following that he does. Like Vulcans, Eliezer is part logician, part mystic, and it seems to work for him.
There are goals, such as fascinating an audience, for which the trappings of mysticism are useful. There are goals, such as breaking out of fixed mental sets and opening oneself to creative insights, for which the actual practice of mysticism is useful.
I agree that Eliezer uses the former a fair bit. He may also use the latter; I wouldn’t know.
The impression I’m getting is that you are not considering the two to be distinct things. I would say that’s an error.
The idea that mysticism is sometimes useful seems to be counter to popular rational thought. When I began reading Eliezer, his tendency towards the use of zen phrasing and rhetoric that was purely aesthetic put me off. I felt that it was not rational for some reason. I came to see that these trappings of mysticism did not detract from his point, but rather added to its persuasiveness.
The problem that exists in this is not that it detracts from rationality, but that the methods used to increase its allure could be used for any teaching, no matter how wrong or destructive. Good rhetoric is kind of like the whore of persuasion, it makes Bayesian rationality more appealing, but also makes any other argument better. Basically, there is zero correlation between being able to use zen phrasing and aesthetic rhetoric and being right.
I could write a post or two about this, but I will tell you my conclusion; Rationalists should not forsake mysticism, rhetoric, zen etc. unless they can get every irrationalist to agree to do the same. Until then, there is no way for rationality to be convincing without these methods if its opponents are using them.
I agree that the trappings of mysticism fascinate a particular kind of audience, and that if I wish to make a particular practice more compelling to that audience, I can wrap the practice in those trappings as a rhetorical technique. And I agree that this works for pretty much any practice I can imagine.
Personally, I prefer precision in language when possible, both as a means of encouraging precision in thought, and as a means of facilitating precision in communication. But I acknowledge that it is not always possible, both because sometimes my thoughts are not clear, and because sometimes the granularity of language is too coarse to convey the distinctions I’m thinking about.
In the former case, I find poetic language useful as a way of circling around the stuff I’m thinking about but can’t quite zero in on yet, similar to circumlocution as a way of bypassing anomic aphasia. In the latter case, I often use poetic language as well, but I’m not sure it’s actually useful.
And of course sometimes I’m just sloppy with my language.
Would you still expect that if it turned out that being visibly non-mundane made it more difficult for the “masters” you talk about to achieve their goals?
I understand your point. Perhaps I am being irrational here. A rationality priesthood may be entirely the wrong approach. I do not deny a certain mysticism about what I’m proposing; as Yvain pointed out in the original thread, Eliezer comes across as rather mystical at times, and I share that inclination. I just find that there is great power in mystical modes of thought, and I suspect that incorporating a bit of that would not hurt the efforts of the masters. In fact, it probably has a lot to do with why Eliezer enjoys the following that he does. Like Vulcans, Eliezer is part logician, part mystic, and it seems to work for him.
There are goals, such as fascinating an audience, for which the trappings of mysticism are useful.
There are goals, such as breaking out of fixed mental sets and opening oneself to creative insights, for which the actual practice of mysticism is useful.
I agree that Eliezer uses the former a fair bit. He may also use the latter; I wouldn’t know.
The impression I’m getting is that you are not considering the two to be distinct things.
I would say that’s an error.
The idea that mysticism is sometimes useful seems to be counter to popular rational thought. When I began reading Eliezer, his tendency towards the use of zen phrasing and rhetoric that was purely aesthetic put me off. I felt that it was not rational for some reason. I came to see that these trappings of mysticism did not detract from his point, but rather added to its persuasiveness.
The problem that exists in this is not that it detracts from rationality, but that the methods used to increase its allure could be used for any teaching, no matter how wrong or destructive. Good rhetoric is kind of like the whore of persuasion, it makes Bayesian rationality more appealing, but also makes any other argument better. Basically, there is zero correlation between being able to use zen phrasing and aesthetic rhetoric and being right.
I could write a post or two about this, but I will tell you my conclusion; Rationalists should not forsake mysticism, rhetoric, zen etc. unless they can get every irrationalist to agree to do the same. Until then, there is no way for rationality to be convincing without these methods if its opponents are using them.
I agree that the trappings of mysticism fascinate a particular kind of audience, and that if I wish to make a particular practice more compelling to that audience, I can wrap the practice in those trappings as a rhetorical technique. And I agree that this works for pretty much any practice I can imagine.
Personally, I prefer precision in language when possible, both as a means of encouraging precision in thought, and as a means of facilitating precision in communication. But I acknowledge that it is not always possible, both because sometimes my thoughts are not clear, and because sometimes the granularity of language is too coarse to convey the distinctions I’m thinking about.
In the former case, I find poetic language useful as a way of circling around the stuff I’m thinking about but can’t quite zero in on yet, similar to circumlocution as a way of bypassing anomic aphasia. In the latter case, I often use poetic language as well, but I’m not sure it’s actually useful.
And of course sometimes I’m just sloppy with my language.