In Analogy City there are a large number of people who have no education or work experience because they grew up on welfare and never had the opportunity for much of an education. A group of the nations best salespeople decides to do some community service and teach some of these people how to sell things on the street. Among what they teach:
Don’t wait to be turned down. Wash that car’s windows and then demand to be paid, don’t ask first. Take their picture, demand money. Hand them a homemade craft, then demand to be paid, etc.
Be aggressive. The customer’s money is your money, it just isn’t in your pocket yet.
Look extra poor so that rich people feel sorry for you and give you more. Employing young children is ideal.
Go to neighborhoods Xington, Yville, and Zburg because thats where the unsuspecting rich liberals targets live and they won’t be jaded enough to turn you away.
Nothing that is taught is illegal, quite. But some of the people in the city feel that teaching these methods is, nonetheless, irresponsible and dangerous. Do these people have a valid complaint? If they decided to replace the old salesperson teachings with something else would you be surprised if these new teachings included admonitions not to be too aggressive or to give services without asking the customer if they wanted them?
(I seem to hold the uncommon view that both feminism and the teachings of most PUA types are compatible and good things. But insofar as the PUA culture includes beliefs like “men are owed more sex” I don’t think the reactions of Alicorn and others are that off-base.)
I seem to hold the uncommon view that both feminism and the teachings of most PUA types are compatible and good things
I agree that there is compatibility between pickup and feminism that is under-explored.
Both PUAs and feminists are heavily focused on the same thing: the needs and preferences of women, and how men can fulfill them. The amount of time and effort PUAs spend trying to figure out and cater to women’s sexual desires is crazy. Furthermore, they often consciously make a choice to develop aspects of their personalities and identities that they know will be attractive to women.
Yet PUAs differ from feminists in their views of what women’s preferences actually are. PUAs assess female criteria from what women respond to, which may not be the same as stated female criteria. Also, even though PUAs attempt to fulfill a subset of women’s desires, they are not always trying to fulfill all of women’s desires all the time.
Both PUAs and feminists make some errors in assessing female preferences, but feminists are more wrong: I would give PUAs a B+ and feminists an F (see this and this for some research on female preferences). (On average, feminist women differ from typical straight women. For instance, feminists are probably more likely to have gender atypical gender expression and values, so it’s not a stretch to think that they might have gender atypical preferences also. As a result, feminists, particularly feminists who criticize pickup, may be out of touch with typical straight women, and fail to recognize how the aggregate preferences of their sisters are incentivizing the very male behavior that they condemn. I’ve seen some feminists admit that they are attracted to traditionally masculine or dominant behavior in men, but I’ve never seen them also think through the implications of their preferences and the incentive structure that they enforce on males.)
Contrary to the guess in your post that PUA culture might include beliefs that men are owed more sex, my impression is that PUAs want women to have sex with them not because of a feeling of obligation, but because they have fulfilled female criteria for having sex.
Some PUAs believe that they “deserve” sex in general, but what they seem to mean is that they are “worthy” of sex, not that they deserve to have sex with any particular women. Other PUAs explicitly disavow the idea that they deserve anything:
No one deserves to get laid, and that includes you and me. But you can get laid if you work at it.
...
Though you are entitled, as a man, to do whatever you want and try to get laid with the women you wnat, you are not entitled to do it without effort. That’s his point. gotta put in the effort, not expect to just happen like some spoiled kid
The whole approach of seduction, as I understand it, is to raise the chance of women wanting to have sex with you for reason of being attracted to you and comfortable having sex with you. PUAs want women to want them.
This approach is not only more ethical than (a) trying to get consent to sex by bypassing women’s sexual and emotional preferences (e.g. obligation, prostitution), or (b) trying to coerce women into have sex without consent… it also wins way more and sounds rather feminist!
These discussions are always difficult because they involve comparing movements and schools of thought rather than propositions. PUA culture definitely includes lots of people without especially misogynist ideas. But it also is going to include people who really do have anti-women sentiments.
Feminism is almost certainly more diverse. You seem more involved in those conversations than I am at this point so I’m sure you know this. So why do you think the feminist view on female match preferences is so contrary to the studies you list? I guess there are probably radical feminists who hold views about power dynamics in relationships which would contradict those studies- but surely liberal feminists (where I include myself) don’t give a shit about the mating preferences of anyone. Obviously there are views in both camps that can’t be reconciled, but I think the best of both can be.
Great blog btw. Is there a post or a series of posts that will summarize your criticisms of feminism? You list of agreements on the site is almost enough for me to want to count you as a feminist.
Here is an older post on my blog criticizing feminists who reduce women’s preferences down to a desire for “respect” from men, and who deny that there are salient sex differences in women’s preferences.
The same tropes came up in recent debate between feminists and PUAs, where the feminists denied that anything PUAs do is actually attractive to women. (Generalizing from their own preferences, with no references to any sort of empirical evidence.)
See my responses here, here, and here. There are a few more in the thread, too.
But insofar as the PUA culture includes beliefs like “men are owed more sex” I don’t think the reactions of Alicorn and others are that off-base.
The ‘off base’ part is the ‘insofar as’. Objections, even valid objections can be off base if they are red herrings, objections to positions that really aren’t held or being expressed in the context.
Of those analogies, it is ironic that ‘1)’ and ‘3)’ are actually among the first misconceptions that an analogous PUA instructor would drill out of a student. Covert contracts and supplication are terrible strategies and far more prevalent in conventional wisdom than in PUA subcultures.
The ‘off base’ part is the ‘insofar as’. Objections, even valid objections can be off base if they are red herrings, objections to positions that really aren’t held or being expressed in the context.
All this might be the case. Like I said I don’t think the PUA stuff is necessarily anti-feminist. But a lot of the commenters here do a pretty good job of being targets for these objections. Put it this way, it isn’t a surprise we’re seeing this reaction given some of the things that have been said.
Edit: Adding that this entire discussion just looks like people seeing political signaling and then jumping on their respective bandwagons.
In Analogy City there are a large number of people who have no education or work experience because they grew up on welfare and never had the opportunity for much of an education. A group of the nations best salespeople decides to do some community service and teach some of these people how to sell things on the street.
I’d like to read more on this, but I couldn’t figure out from your comment whether it refers to a real-world event or it’s just pure fiction—all Google searches I tried lead to this comment. If what you wrote above is based on a real event, could you post a link to it?
(To clarify—I’m interested in salesmanship proper, not in getting laid.)
Yes, as far as I know I made the whole thing up. There are programs at shelters which teach the homeless and recently homeless job interview skills and sometimes a trade. But I don’t know of anything involving salesmen.
The ‘Among what they teach’ part was constructed more by translating objections through the analogy than by any significant reference to the reality of salesmanship. I do not think you can glean too much information about salesmanship from the comment in question.
In Analogy City there are a large number of people who have no education or work experience because they grew up on welfare and never had the opportunity for much of an education. A group of the nations best salespeople decides to do some community service and teach some of these people how to sell things on the street. Among what they teach:
Don’t wait to be turned down. Wash that car’s windows and then demand to be paid, don’t ask first. Take their picture, demand money. Hand them a homemade craft, then demand to be paid, etc.
Be aggressive. The customer’s money is your money, it just isn’t in your pocket yet.
Look extra poor so that rich people feel sorry for you and give you more. Employing young children is ideal.
Go to neighborhoods Xington, Yville, and Zburg because thats where the unsuspecting rich liberals targets live and they won’t be jaded enough to turn you away.
Nothing that is taught is illegal, quite. But some of the people in the city feel that teaching these methods is, nonetheless, irresponsible and dangerous. Do these people have a valid complaint? If they decided to replace the old salesperson teachings with something else would you be surprised if these new teachings included admonitions not to be too aggressive or to give services without asking the customer if they wanted them?
(I seem to hold the uncommon view that both feminism and the teachings of most PUA types are compatible and good things. But insofar as the PUA culture includes beliefs like “men are owed more sex” I don’t think the reactions of Alicorn and others are that off-base.)
I agree that there is compatibility between pickup and feminism that is under-explored.
Both PUAs and feminists are heavily focused on the same thing: the needs and preferences of women, and how men can fulfill them. The amount of time and effort PUAs spend trying to figure out and cater to women’s sexual desires is crazy. Furthermore, they often consciously make a choice to develop aspects of their personalities and identities that they know will be attractive to women.
Yet PUAs differ from feminists in their views of what women’s preferences actually are. PUAs assess female criteria from what women respond to, which may not be the same as stated female criteria. Also, even though PUAs attempt to fulfill a subset of women’s desires, they are not always trying to fulfill all of women’s desires all the time.
Both PUAs and feminists make some errors in assessing female preferences, but feminists are more wrong: I would give PUAs a B+ and feminists an F (see this and this for some research on female preferences). (On average, feminist women differ from typical straight women. For instance, feminists are probably more likely to have gender atypical gender expression and values, so it’s not a stretch to think that they might have gender atypical preferences also. As a result, feminists, particularly feminists who criticize pickup, may be out of touch with typical straight women, and fail to recognize how the aggregate preferences of their sisters are incentivizing the very male behavior that they condemn. I’ve seen some feminists admit that they are attracted to traditionally masculine or dominant behavior in men, but I’ve never seen them also think through the implications of their preferences and the incentive structure that they enforce on males.)
Contrary to the guess in your post that PUA culture might include beliefs that men are owed more sex, my impression is that PUAs want women to have sex with them not because of a feeling of obligation, but because they have fulfilled female criteria for having sex.
Some PUAs believe that they “deserve” sex in general, but what they seem to mean is that they are “worthy” of sex, not that they deserve to have sex with any particular women. Other PUAs explicitly disavow the idea that they deserve anything:
...
The whole approach of seduction, as I understand it, is to raise the chance of women wanting to have sex with you for reason of being attracted to you and comfortable having sex with you. PUAs want women to want them.
This approach is not only more ethical than (a) trying to get consent to sex by bypassing women’s sexual and emotional preferences (e.g. obligation, prostitution), or (b) trying to coerce women into have sex without consent… it also wins way more and sounds rather feminist!
These discussions are always difficult because they involve comparing movements and schools of thought rather than propositions. PUA culture definitely includes lots of people without especially misogynist ideas. But it also is going to include people who really do have anti-women sentiments.
Feminism is almost certainly more diverse. You seem more involved in those conversations than I am at this point so I’m sure you know this. So why do you think the feminist view on female match preferences is so contrary to the studies you list? I guess there are probably radical feminists who hold views about power dynamics in relationships which would contradict those studies- but surely liberal feminists (where I include myself) don’t give a shit about the mating preferences of anyone. Obviously there are views in both camps that can’t be reconciled, but I think the best of both can be.
Great blog btw. Is there a post or a series of posts that will summarize your criticisms of feminism? You list of agreements on the site is almost enough for me to want to count you as a feminist.
Thanks… I plan on getting back to this post soon, either here or on my blog, and if I don’t feel free to bug me.
Just curious, did you ever followup on this?
I’m actually writing up some stuff for my blog that addresses these issues. I’ll link when it’s up.
Ok, here we go...
Here is an older post on my blog criticizing feminists who reduce women’s preferences down to a desire for “respect” from men, and who deny that there are salient sex differences in women’s preferences.
The same tropes came up in recent debate between feminists and PUAs, where the feminists denied that anything PUAs do is actually attractive to women. (Generalizing from their own preferences, with no references to any sort of empirical evidence.)
See my responses here, here, and here. There are a few more in the thread, too.
The ‘off base’ part is the ‘insofar as’. Objections, even valid objections can be off base if they are red herrings, objections to positions that really aren’t held or being expressed in the context.
Of those analogies, it is ironic that ‘1)’ and ‘3)’ are actually among the first misconceptions that an analogous PUA instructor would drill out of a student. Covert contracts and supplication are terrible strategies and far more prevalent in conventional wisdom than in PUA subcultures.
All this might be the case. Like I said I don’t think the PUA stuff is necessarily anti-feminist. But a lot of the commenters here do a pretty good job of being targets for these objections. Put it this way, it isn’t a surprise we’re seeing this reaction given some of the things that have been said.
Edit: Adding that this entire discussion just looks like people seeing political signaling and then jumping on their respective bandwagons.
I’d like to read more on this, but I couldn’t figure out from your comment whether it refers to a real-world event or it’s just pure fiction—all Google searches I tried lead to this comment. If what you wrote above is based on a real event, could you post a link to it?
(To clarify—I’m interested in salesmanship proper, not in getting laid.)
Analogy City is hypothetical.
Yes, I understand that—I was wondering about the “Among what they teach” part.
Yes, as far as I know I made the whole thing up. There are programs at shelters which teach the homeless and recently homeless job interview skills and sometimes a trade. But I don’t know of anything involving salesmen.
The ‘Among what they teach’ part was constructed more by translating objections through the analogy than by any significant reference to the reality of salesmanship. I do not think you can glean too much information about salesmanship from the comment in question.