Please note that nobody on this site has actually stated that men are owed sex from women as a group. As with any such dispute as to who is ethically owed what, this would clearly be a cause of conflict; and we’re trying to avoid having such “mind-killer” discussions on Less Wrong.
It was Alicorn who made the leap (see this post), which is evidence that this meme is floating around in mainstream culture. What people were saying is that men with romantic aspirations should be empathized with, given the difficulties they may face.
Is this a “dangerously wrong” notion? Why aren’t you objecting to mainstream culture, where the kinds of implied obligations and entitlements Alicorn refers to seem to be widespread?
Please note that nobody on this site has actually stated that men are owed sex from women as a group.
Well, that wouldn’t be a meaningful statement. Under the usual meanings of owing, someone has got to pay up. But women as a class can’t pay up, even if coerced, only individual women can. So this is the wrong way to describe the situation in any case.
This whole discussion started, I believe, with Robin Hanson’s recent posts on Overcoming Bias. He presented a problem (some men want, even need more sex than they can get; and society is generally unsympathetic with them) but not a solution.
However, the notions of “owing” and suggestions of influencing or coercing women were very much present in the posts Robin linked to and in various comments there. That’s not to say Robin agreed with them, of course.
Why aren’t you objecting to mainstream culture
Of course we’re also objecting to that part of mainstream culture. When it’s discussed here, we mention those objections here. After all the original topic was how to change mainstream culture for the better, not just our corner of it here.
However, the notions of “owing” and suggestions of influencing or coercing women were very much present in the posts Robin linked to and in various comments there.
No comments here have stated that men are owed sex from women as a group. The introduction of the concept was a straw man rebuttal to quoted claims and nobody has deigned to play advocate for the position, once included in the discussion. I cannot speak for the contents of posts on OvercomingBias.com.
The introduction of the concept was a straw man rebuttal to quoted claims
For the record, I don’t think this is accurate. In my opinion, the concerns raised by Alicorn and others were genuine and partially justified. Sex and gender relations are contentious topics in mainstream culture; we should keep this in mind and approach them cautiously.
Please note that nobody on this site has actually stated that men are owed sex from women as a group. As with any such dispute as to who is ethically owed what, this would clearly be a cause of conflict; and we’re trying to avoid having such “mind-killer” discussions on Less Wrong.
It was Alicorn who made the leap (see this post), which is evidence that this meme is floating around in mainstream culture. What people were saying is that men with romantic aspirations should be empathized with, given the difficulties they may face.
Is this a “dangerously wrong” notion? Why aren’t you objecting to mainstream culture, where the kinds of implied obligations and entitlements Alicorn refers to seem to be widespread?
Well, that wouldn’t be a meaningful statement. Under the usual meanings of owing, someone has got to pay up. But women as a class can’t pay up, even if coerced, only individual women can. So this is the wrong way to describe the situation in any case.
This whole discussion started, I believe, with Robin Hanson’s recent posts on Overcoming Bias. He presented a problem (some men want, even need more sex than they can get; and society is generally unsympathetic with them) but not a solution.
However, the notions of “owing” and suggestions of influencing or coercing women were very much present in the posts Robin linked to and in various comments there. That’s not to say Robin agreed with them, of course.
Of course we’re also objecting to that part of mainstream culture. When it’s discussed here, we mention those objections here. After all the original topic was how to change mainstream culture for the better, not just our corner of it here.
No comments here have stated that men are owed sex from women as a group. The introduction of the concept was a straw man rebuttal to quoted claims and nobody has deigned to play advocate for the position, once included in the discussion. I cannot speak for the contents of posts on OvercomingBias.com.
For the record, I don’t think this is accurate. In my opinion, the concerns raised by Alicorn and others were genuine and partially justified. Sex and gender relations are contentious topics in mainstream culture; we should keep this in mind and approach them cautiously.