I’m an atheist that lives in Slovenia a mostly secular place with a cosy social democracy yet I’m also a young no income white male and seeing some deeply disturbing kinds of language among the cool set referring to my demographic. Seems pretty stage three-ish by Stanton’s scale. I’m quit sure my country will import them in a matter of a few years because we’ve had rapid cultural convergence with US norms after the fall of Communism. I’m also quite certain at this point that there is a real risk about 0.05 to 0.1 for some rather nasty outcomes in just a few decades.
Not to imply this is me resenting cultural imperialism or something, we would have inevitably gotten there too on our own, I blame silly forager morality and signaling games attached to it that have been unleashed by material prosperity. To make a short argument for my concerns market dominant minorities and democracies are not happy combinations. Minorities that do well economically end up targets of irrational hate. The memetic core for scapegoating for various problems that will only grow worse is clearly there and unlikely to be opposed strongly by any institution I’m aware of.
Being from the former Yugoslavia I have very little confidence Western Europe is going to be a pleasant place in a few decades since its economies probably won’t ever really recover. The fundamentals are rotten, the political system incapable of reform. That and competing tribes coexisting tightly when the economy is bad is a major sign of bad news for me. Technological progress may keep them afloat with 1 to 2 or even 3 percent GDP growth but they won’t ever be centers of innovation and will be ever more outshines by other parts of the world. The welfare states there are also unsustainable because of aging.
I’m thinking to teach my children & grandchildren to not be too attached to any particular country and be ready to move at the drop of a hat. Maybe even try to set up a viable subculture around that. I’m thinking Cyber Gypsies or some economic/cultural niche like that. The settled alternative is probably the machete.
Maybe move to the US while there is still some money to be made and then perhaps go to Singapore before it becomes a democracy. Maybe stay there at that point but I have a feeling it will go downhill pretty rapidly. Maybe South Korea? It will be a downgrade from Singapore certainly but its been opening up its borders so immigration there should be easier by them. Also it is going to take several decades for it to be fucked up to European levels by forager morality so that seems an ok place to go.
3. DEHUMANIZATION: One group denies the humanity of the other group. Members of it are equated with animals, vermin, insects or diseases. Dehumanization overcomes the normal human revulsion against murder. At this stage, hate propaganda in print and on hate radios is used to vilify the victim group. In combating this dehumanization, incitement to genocide should not be confused with protected speech. Genocidal societies lack constitutional protection for countervailing speech, and should be treated differently than democracies. Local and international leaders should condemn the use of hate speech and make it culturally unacceptable. Leaders who incite genocide should be banned from international travel and have their foreign finances frozen. Hate radio stations should be shut down, and hate propaganda banned. Hate crimes and atrocities should be promptly punished.
I’m an atheist that lives in Slovenia a mostly secular place with a cosy social democracy yet I’m also a young no income white male and seeing some deeply disturbing kinds of language among the cool set with regards referring to my demographic.
Sorry, could you be more explicit here? It sounds like you may be talking around a topic that you think is obvious, but that may be illusion of transparency.
I’m supposing he’s a croat or serb—see some discussion here for context on stereotypes and politics and faction (also maybe here, though that’s more about the position of Slovenia and Croatia vis a vis the rest of Yugoslavia).
(Konkvistador, plays say so if you don’t want people publicly speculating about you)
You’re the Anti-Zizek. European communism disintegrates and one of the byproducts is a Lacanian Hegelian who becomes the Sartre of his generation. Now European neoliberalism goes into crisis and Slovenia gives us a “reactionary rationalist”. Though “cyber-gypsies” seems out of character. Does Slovenia have real gypsies?
What we see in Europe today isn’t a crisis of Capitalism, my God no, many see it that way but it couldn’t be farther from the truth nervous twitch what we see is a crisis of social democracy, all key things that went wrong in this recession would have gone wrong anyway just in a decade or two, aging demographics, bureaucratization social fallout from consumerism and economic globalization. Some people grow confused when I say this here in small minded Slovenia … what are you anti-Žižek some kind of Americanized pro-capitalist running pig-dog? To these Comrades anti-Žižek seems to convulse I say NO! I am not criticizing socialism to bolster capitalism I am criticizing both capitalism and socialism in favor starts yelling of FEUDALISM!
You see there is no fundamental conflict you see between the good feel social liberalism and the feel good consumerist capitalism. Both appeal to the most base uncivilized forager moral instincts, which have negative externialities when running complex society.
Anti-Žižek much like Žižek doesn’t want to be understood too well. But Konkvistador doesn’t mind. In an earlier post I cited three different kinds of governments I’d like to see run in different countries as a good starting point in the search for something better than what we have now.
I’d also like to see a country with a mostly Amish population divided into cantons ruled by local Amish religious elders & councils. It might prove to be the happiest society in the world. Even if not I suspect we’d see very interesting results.
yet I’m also a young no income white male and seeing some deeply disturbing kinds of language among the cool set with regards referring to my demographic. Seems pretty stage three-ish by Stanton’s scale.
Would you mind sharing some of this evidence so we can assess its significance, Bayes style?
Minorities that do well economically end up targets of irrational hate. The memetic core for scapegoating for various problems that will only grow worse is clearly there and unlikely to be opposed strongly by any institution I’m aware of.
From an American point of view, money seems to be really helpful in terms of insulating yourself from bad consequences. Are there the Slovenian equivalents of gated communities where you’re safely away from inner city war zones and so on, for a small price? It seems that market dominance is a net positive not a negative, especially if class lines are hardening.
I’m thinking to teach my children & grandchildren to not be too attached to any particular country and be ready to move at the drop of a hat. Maybe even try to set up a viable subculture around that.
That is my plan as well. This Atlantic article may give some ideas of how to pull it off. But do note the tradeoffs—cultural integration is hard and pretty much requires lifelong residence to learn the culture well enough to get the benefits of being considered an ingroup member. Gaining mobility means being considered an outsider and yes this means significant penalties even in “tolerant” liberal democracies. (This may be mitigated if a clade of transient elites actually takes off, with its own ingroup dynamics and everything—but I sense some internal contradictions within that idea.)
This may be mitigated if a clade of transient elites actually takes off, with its own ingroup dynamics and everything—but I sense some internal contradictions within that idea.
It appears that this is happening among the billionaire class- residences in London, New York, and wherever else they like. It doesn’t appear to be common among the millionaire class- there are a few people that have Ferris-style lifestyle businesses and travel wherever they like, but that seems like the sort of thing that is not very robust to global insecurity.
Yeah, the billionaire class may be interesting but naturally I don’t know much about it and at any rate it’s mostly unattainable. The Ferris-style folks may be more interesting.
Another place to look is ethnic diasporas, but I don’t really see a strong trend of ethnic ties superseding national ones. The incentives for success usually favor cultural assimilation over maintaining ethnic ties. (The aside one exception is Jews, who have some fairly unique history favoring cohesion).
As an interesting aside, converting to Judaism may be one way to join something like a “clade of transient elites” (more attainable than the billionaire club, anyway).
It’s not much better in the US. I live in a fairly Townie area, but there is a University, which has a student body unanimous in its adoration of Brahmin values. All of my young coworkers chattered with glee this morning at the “humiliation” of the “enemy”.
Jargon separates the raw value systems I’m talking about from the tribes that cling to them. I figured this would be less mind-killing but still communicative to the sort of person who cares about this thread.
I’m also a young no income white male and seeing some deeply disturbing kinds of language among the cool set referring to my demographic
I can testify to that, as I’m quite guilty of such language and impulses. After soaking up Internet trends, I turned rather phobic towards that demographic, and often unconsciously associate them with a political and social danger to “protected”/”decent”/”upstanding” groups. In particular, I have a gut revulsion to libertarian politics, “men’s rights” activism, critics of liberal academia, etc. Dehumanization is not an outrageous way to put it.
I’d love to say I don’t wish you, personally, social or moral ruin, but… you have probably seen how insane and angry I can get. :(
Reactionary Rationalist Plotting, Advice Requested
I’m an atheist that lives in Slovenia a mostly secular place with a cosy social democracy yet I’m also a young no income white male and seeing some deeply disturbing kinds of language among the cool set referring to my demographic. Seems pretty stage three-ish by Stanton’s scale. I’m quit sure my country will import them in a matter of a few years because we’ve had rapid cultural convergence with US norms after the fall of Communism. I’m also quite certain at this point that there is a real risk about 0.05 to 0.1 for some rather nasty outcomes in just a few decades.
Not to imply this is me resenting cultural imperialism or something, we would have inevitably gotten there too on our own, I blame silly forager morality and signaling games attached to it that have been unleashed by material prosperity. To make a short argument for my concerns market dominant minorities and democracies are not happy combinations. Minorities that do well economically end up targets of irrational hate. The memetic core for scapegoating for various problems that will only grow worse is clearly there and unlikely to be opposed strongly by any institution I’m aware of.
Being from the former Yugoslavia I have very little confidence Western Europe is going to be a pleasant place in a few decades since its economies probably won’t ever really recover. The fundamentals are rotten, the political system incapable of reform. That and competing tribes coexisting tightly when the economy is bad is a major sign of bad news for me. Technological progress may keep them afloat with 1 to 2 or even 3 percent GDP growth but they won’t ever be centers of innovation and will be ever more outshines by other parts of the world. The welfare states there are also unsustainable because of aging.
I’m thinking to teach my children & grandchildren to not be too attached to any particular country and be ready to move at the drop of a hat. Maybe even try to set up a viable subculture around that. I’m thinking Cyber Gypsies or some economic/cultural niche like that. The settled alternative is probably the machete.
Maybe move to the US while there is still some money to be made and then perhaps go to Singapore before it becomes a democracy. Maybe stay there at that point but I have a feeling it will go downhill pretty rapidly. Maybe South Korea? It will be a downgrade from Singapore certainly but its been opening up its borders so immigration there should be easier by them. Also it is going to take several decades for it to be fucked up to European levels by forager morality so that seems an ok place to go.
What’s Stanton’s scale? Google only turned up references to measuring scales.
The Eight Stages of Genocide:
Sorry, could you be more explicit here? It sounds like you may be talking around a topic that you think is obvious, but that may be illusion of transparency.
Konkvistador is a concerned Tutsi living in a politico-cultural regime which seems increasingly pleased at the prospect of watching Hutus eat Tutsis.
I’m supposing he’s a croat or serb—see some discussion here for context on stereotypes and politics and faction (also maybe here, though that’s more about the position of Slovenia and Croatia vis a vis the rest of Yugoslavia).
(Konkvistador, plays say so if you don’t want people publicly speculating about you)
You’re the Anti-Zizek. European communism disintegrates and one of the byproducts is a Lacanian Hegelian who becomes the Sartre of his generation. Now European neoliberalism goes into crisis and Slovenia gives us a “reactionary rationalist”. Though “cyber-gypsies” seems out of character. Does Slovenia have real gypsies?
Heh upvoted. Ok I’ll try to play the part, please read this in his distinct voice and style of speech:
What we see in Europe today isn’t a crisis of Capitalism, my God no, many see it that way but it couldn’t be farther from the truth nervous twitch what we see is a crisis of social democracy, all key things that went wrong in this recession would have gone wrong anyway just in a decade or two, aging demographics, bureaucratization social fallout from consumerism and economic globalization. Some people grow confused when I say this here in small minded Slovenia … what are you anti-Žižek some kind of Americanized pro-capitalist running pig-dog? To these Comrades anti-Žižek seems to convulse I say NO! I am not criticizing socialism to bolster capitalism I am criticizing both capitalism and socialism in favor starts yelling of FEUDALISM!
You see there is no fundamental conflict you see between the good feel social liberalism and the feel good consumerist capitalism. Both appeal to the most base uncivilized forager moral instincts, which have negative externialities when running complex society.
I still have no idea what you’re talking about. What would a Konkvistador approved government look like?
I have no idea either, but for some reason it’s still hilarious to read.
Anti-Žižek much like Žižek doesn’t want to be understood too well. But Konkvistador doesn’t mind. In an earlier post I cited three different kinds of governments I’d like to see run in different countries as a good starting point in the search for something better than what we have now.
I’d also like to see a country with a mostly Amish population divided into cantons ruled by local Amish religious elders & councils. It might prove to be the happiest society in the world. Even if not I suspect we’d see very interesting results.
Would you mind sharing some of this evidence so we can assess its significance, Bayes style?
From an American point of view, money seems to be really helpful in terms of insulating yourself from bad consequences. Are there the Slovenian equivalents of gated communities where you’re safely away from inner city war zones and so on, for a small price? It seems that market dominance is a net positive not a negative, especially if class lines are hardening.
That is my plan as well. This Atlantic article may give some ideas of how to pull it off. But do note the tradeoffs—cultural integration is hard and pretty much requires lifelong residence to learn the culture well enough to get the benefits of being considered an ingroup member. Gaining mobility means being considered an outsider and yes this means significant penalties even in “tolerant” liberal democracies. (This may be mitigated if a clade of transient elites actually takes off, with its own ingroup dynamics and everything—but I sense some internal contradictions within that idea.)
It appears that this is happening among the billionaire class- residences in London, New York, and wherever else they like. It doesn’t appear to be common among the millionaire class- there are a few people that have Ferris-style lifestyle businesses and travel wherever they like, but that seems like the sort of thing that is not very robust to global insecurity.
Yeah, the billionaire class may be interesting but naturally I don’t know much about it and at any rate it’s mostly unattainable. The Ferris-style folks may be more interesting.
Another place to look is ethnic diasporas, but I don’t really see a strong trend of ethnic ties superseding national ones. The incentives for success usually favor cultural assimilation over maintaining ethnic ties. (The aside one exception is Jews, who have some fairly unique history favoring cohesion).
As an interesting aside, converting to Judaism may be one way to join something like a “clade of transient elites” (more attainable than the billionaire club, anyway).
Is the ‘no income’ qualifier one you expect to change soon? Why or why not?
Its more “no income” than actually no income. But yes.
Working on a start up, even if it fails I think I’ll get a better skill set in the process.
It’s not much better in the US. I live in a fairly Townie area, but there is a University, which has a student body unanimous in its adoration of Brahmin values. All of my young coworkers chattered with glee this morning at the “humiliation” of the “enemy”.
Not UR comments, go easy on the jargon
Jargon separates the raw value systems I’m talking about from the tribes that cling to them. I figured this would be less mind-killing but still communicative to the sort of person who cares about this thread.
I can testify to that, as I’m quite guilty of such language and impulses. After soaking up Internet trends, I turned rather phobic towards that demographic, and often unconsciously associate them with a political and social danger to “protected”/”decent”/”upstanding” groups. In particular, I have a gut revulsion to libertarian politics, “men’s rights” activism, critics of liberal academia, etc. Dehumanization is not an outrageous way to put it.
I’d love to say I don’t wish you, personally, social or moral ruin, but… you have probably seen how insane and angry I can get. :(
So report for delousing immediately!