What changed my mind was his comparison between his proposal and Taylor’s. It is put entirely in terms of potential as a tool to limit immigration. He does link to a debate he had with Taylor years earlier, where he puts more emphasis on principles and the general running of society.
A debate where he says that Taylor is morally right but that citizenism is more practical and more salable; repeatedly he says that citizenism is a pragmatic attack on his foes:
Mr. Taylor contends that “duty does not calculate the odds of success” but I do. And I’m betting on citizenism, not white nationalism, as the principle that could save America.
If Sailer actually accepts ‘citizenism’, then why this talk of ‘odds of success’ or ‘betting’? If he believed it, then the chance of success is merely a good extra thing: “I’m right and I’m more likely to succeed”. His arguments are taking the form of “you’re right, but I’m more likely to succeed”.
Priors: I haven’t heard of either Taylor or Sailor before (except possibly in passing). I dislike “citizenism” (insofar as I understand what that means before reading this) almost as much as (though slightly less than) “white nationalism”. I am also slightly more swayed by gwern’s argument than Douglas’s so far, though I remain quite uncertain.
Upon reading the essay linked and this previous one, but nothing else, my impression is that Sailor’s main focus is on distinguishing “nationalism” and “tribalism” (my terms for interpreting his ideas), more or less. By nationalism he means a system based on laws designed to facilitate and encourage altruism and cooperation with strangers, which he claims emerged in Western Europe, and is carried on mostly by whites. By tribalism he means a system based on supporting and dealing with primarily your extended family, and by extension members of your race. He opposes “white nationalism” insofar as he believes it’s “tribalist” and anti-individualistic and would harness whites to serve the racial group (much as he claims black solidarity, etc., does for other races), which would be harmful. He does seem to believe that whites are broadly superior to black and Latinos, but seems to believe this difference is unimportant compared to the paramount goal of promoting the welfare of current US citizens and ensuring that the “nationalism” (using the definition I mentioned above) remains the dominant force.
So, posteriors: I find that his arguments suck, and my opinion of “citizenism” has not improved and possibly became worse (which is beside the point). However, judging by those two posts alone, it does seem like Sailor genuinely holds “citizenism” to be paramount and is in weak opposition to some forms of white nationalism, insofar as that would encourage whites to put group interests ahead of individual and general cooperation interests; that said, he probably believes that whites are genuinely superior and because of this has significant moral sympathy for white nationalist positions despite believing a focus on racial solidarity may be harmful. Although I’m not sure if he cares about improving the lives of non-white Americans or sees that as merely a neutral or slightly beneficial side-effect of improving the lives of white Americans.
A debate where he says that Taylor is morally right but that citizenism is more practical and more salable; repeatedly he says that citizenism is a pragmatic attack on his foes:
If Sailer actually accepts ‘citizenism’, then why this talk of ‘odds of success’ or ‘betting’? If he believed it, then the chance of success is merely a good extra thing: “I’m right and I’m more likely to succeed”. His arguments are taking the form of “you’re right, but I’m more likely to succeed”.
I invite the reader to actually read the debate and see which of those forms his arguments take.
Priors: I haven’t heard of either Taylor or Sailor before (except possibly in passing). I dislike “citizenism” (insofar as I understand what that means before reading this) almost as much as (though slightly less than) “white nationalism”. I am also slightly more swayed by gwern’s argument than Douglas’s so far, though I remain quite uncertain.
Upon reading the essay linked and this previous one, but nothing else, my impression is that Sailor’s main focus is on distinguishing “nationalism” and “tribalism” (my terms for interpreting his ideas), more or less. By nationalism he means a system based on laws designed to facilitate and encourage altruism and cooperation with strangers, which he claims emerged in Western Europe, and is carried on mostly by whites. By tribalism he means a system based on supporting and dealing with primarily your extended family, and by extension members of your race. He opposes “white nationalism” insofar as he believes it’s “tribalist” and anti-individualistic and would harness whites to serve the racial group (much as he claims black solidarity, etc., does for other races), which would be harmful. He does seem to believe that whites are broadly superior to black and Latinos, but seems to believe this difference is unimportant compared to the paramount goal of promoting the welfare of current US citizens and ensuring that the “nationalism” (using the definition I mentioned above) remains the dominant force.
So, posteriors: I find that his arguments suck, and my opinion of “citizenism” has not improved and possibly became worse (which is beside the point). However, judging by those two posts alone, it does seem like Sailor genuinely holds “citizenism” to be paramount and is in weak opposition to some forms of white nationalism, insofar as that would encourage whites to put group interests ahead of individual and general cooperation interests; that said, he probably believes that whites are genuinely superior and because of this has significant moral sympathy for white nationalist positions despite believing a focus on racial solidarity may be harmful. Although I’m not sure if he cares about improving the lives of non-white Americans or sees that as merely a neutral or slightly beneficial side-effect of improving the lives of white Americans.
I admire your ability to read and review the article in a sane way, in the middle of mindkilling maelstrom.