The link was more me provoking people to a discussion than a full argument. I’m writing a series of articles on this matter where I will make it.
I’m not complaining that you didn’t make a full argument, I’m complaining that the Harpending link was worthless. It would be better if you had omitted it. Provoking people with bullshit does not suggest that you are interested in the truth. At least Harpending has the humility to admit when he is wrong. Like you, he assumed that if he drew an example at random it would support his case, but he had the humility when presenting it to ask for analysis of the particular case. The fact that he and you are wrong in the belief that randomly pulling examples supports you is evidence that you are overconfident.
If you are familiar with the literature you know this is basically true.
Well, if you are familiar with the literature, why not cite a survey or something? After the Harpending example, why should I trust your description of the literature? But thanks for the links in this comment.
Actually, I like simple arguments like Cochran’s much more than the education research literature. Mainly I distrust it because it is politicized and incompetent, but on this particular point, I imagine that most of the (US) literature is worthless because (US) schools lie about their spending. It is widely known that poor urban districts have larger budgets per student than rich suburban districts, but this is an illusion because suburban buildings are off budget, especially in the richest districts. Probably some of the literature, like the nameless commenter, isolates instructional spending, which is a much more reasonable comparison, in addition to evading the deceit.
I imagine that most of the (US) literature is worthless because (US) schools lie about their spending
I’ve finally had time to read that interesting and long paper. It is strong to call most of the US literature worthless because of those points, it gives your argument much more weight than I previously thought it had. Thank you for sharing it!
I see you ignored the Caplan links. Regardless I really should give extensive references from the literature. I will do so in the articles which I will likely publish on the matter in my new blog and will share links here.
Your reply makes it clear to me that I used too harsh a tone.
I was hoping to solicit your comment on Caplan’s particular arguments rathern than to flaunt your lack of comment on them as some kind of counter point to the points you touched on, which it obviously isn’t. If I have offended please accept my apologies.
There’s a serious conditioning problem in responding at greater length to bad arguments than to good arguments.
I am generally sympathetic to your position on both education and healthcare, so I don’t think I have much to learn by engaging with it, at least not with this kind of evidence. As I complain below, Caplan does not propose anything. I may engage elsewhere with your vague proposal.
As to the particular Caplan articles. Yes, foreign language instruction in the US is a disaster and should be dropped, or narrowed or something, but I don’t believe that the comparison to Europe is pure revealed preference. As to Algebra 1, meh. He talks in terms of cost-benefit comparison, but doesn’t offer any alternatives. If the purpose of school is babysitting, teaching conscientiousness, or IQ testing, then it doesn’t matter much what subjects you teach. Maybe if math is more unpleasant than other subjects, that’s a strike against it, but he describes foreign language as also painful.
If I were making micro-changes to the US curriculum, I might require several years of math without requiring any particular level for graduation. I think that there is a serious problem of people moving on without understanding the prerequisites. If you want to get people out of school earlier, then, sure, a lot of them shouldn’t reach Algebra 1.
Whether the study Caplan cites is a good measure of the benefit of the class depends on what you think the purpose of the class is, which depends on what you think the purpose of school is. But I certainly don’t think school is very consciously designed around any goal, let alone the three I suggest, so, yes, it could achieve these goals better, or at least more cheaply.
I’m not complaining that you didn’t make a full argument, I’m complaining that the Harpending link was worthless. It would be better if you had omitted it. Provoking people with bullshit does not suggest that you are interested in the truth. At least Harpending has the humility to admit when he is wrong. Like you, he assumed that if he drew an example at random it would support his case, but he had the humility when presenting it to ask for analysis of the particular case. The fact that he and you are wrong in the belief that randomly pulling examples supports you is evidence that you are overconfident.
Well, if you are familiar with the literature, why not cite a survey or something? After the Harpending example, why should I trust your description of the literature? But thanks for the links in this comment.
Actually, I like simple arguments like Cochran’s much more than the education research literature. Mainly I distrust it because it is politicized and incompetent, but on this particular point, I imagine that most of the (US) literature is worthless because (US) schools lie about their spending. It is widely known that poor urban districts have larger budgets per student than rich suburban districts, but this is an illusion because suburban buildings are off budget, especially in the richest districts. Probably some of the literature, like the nameless commenter, isolates instructional spending, which is a much more reasonable comparison, in addition to evading the deceit.
I’ve finally had time to read that interesting and long paper. It is strong to call most of the US literature worthless because of those points, it gives your argument much more weight than I previously thought it had. Thank you for sharing it!
It is very useful to get people to make extensive responses, which can be pretty educational.
I don’t think I was randomly pulling examples.
I see you ignored the Caplan links. Regardless I really should give extensive references from the literature. I will do so in the articles which I will likely publish on the matter in my new blog and will share links here.
You see what you want to see.
Your reply makes it clear to me that I used too harsh a tone.
I was hoping to solicit your comment on Caplan’s particular arguments rathern than to flaunt your lack of comment on them as some kind of counter point to the points you touched on, which it obviously isn’t. If I have offended please accept my apologies.
There’s a serious conditioning problem in responding at greater length to bad arguments than to good arguments.
I am generally sympathetic to your position on both education and healthcare, so I don’t think I have much to learn by engaging with it, at least not with this kind of evidence. As I complain below, Caplan does not propose anything. I may engage elsewhere with your vague proposal.
As to the particular Caplan articles. Yes, foreign language instruction in the US is a disaster and should be dropped, or narrowed or something, but I don’t believe that the comparison to Europe is pure revealed preference. As to Algebra 1, meh. He talks in terms of cost-benefit comparison, but doesn’t offer any alternatives. If the purpose of school is babysitting, teaching conscientiousness, or IQ testing, then it doesn’t matter much what subjects you teach. Maybe if math is more unpleasant than other subjects, that’s a strike against it, but he describes foreign language as also painful.
If I were making micro-changes to the US curriculum, I might require several years of math without requiring any particular level for graduation. I think that there is a serious problem of people moving on without understanding the prerequisites. If you want to get people out of school earlier, then, sure, a lot of them shouldn’t reach Algebra 1.
Whether the study Caplan cites is a good measure of the benefit of the class depends on what you think the purpose of the class is, which depends on what you think the purpose of school is. But I certainly don’t think school is very consciously designed around any goal, let alone the three I suggest, so, yes, it could achieve these goals better, or at least more cheaply.
So what is it that I want to see?