Each of the transformation steps described in the post reduces my expectation that the result would be conscious somewhat.
Well, it’s like saying if the {human in a car as a single system} is or is not conscious. Firstly it’s a weird question, because of course it is. And even if you chain the human to a wheel in such a way they will never disjoin from the car.
What I did is constrained possible actions of the human emulation. Not severely, the human still can talk whatever, just with constant compute budget, time or iterative commutation steps. Kind of like you can constrain actions of a meaty human by putting them in a jail or something. (… or in a time loop / repeated complete memory wipes)
No, I don’t think it would be “what the fuck” surprising if an emulation of a human brain was not conscious.
How would you expect to this possibly cash out? Suppose there are human emulations running around doing all things exactly like meaty humans. How exactly do you expect that announcement of a high scientific council go, “We discovered that EMs are not conscious* because …. and that’s important because of …”. Is that completely out of model for you? Or like, can you give me (even goofy) scenario out of that possibility
Or do you think high resolution simulations will fail to replicate capabilities of humans, outlook of them? I.e special sauce/quantum fuckery/literal magic?
I don’t expect this to “cash out” at all, which is rather the point.
The only really surprising part would be that we had a way to determine for certain whether some other system is conscious or not at all. That is, very similar (high) levels of surprisal for either “ems are definitely conscious” or “ems are definitely not conscious”, but the ratio between them not being anywhere near “what the fuck” level.
As it stands, I can determine that I am conscious but I do not know how or why I am conscious. I have only a sample size of 1, and no way to access a larger sample. I cannot determine that you are conscious. I can’t even determine for certain when or whether I was conscious in the past, and there are some time periods for which I am very uncertain. I have hypotheses regarding all of these uncertainties, but there are no prospects of checking whether they’re actually correct.
So given that, why would I be “what the fuck” surprised if some of my currently favoured hypotheses such as “ems will be conscious” were actually false? I don’t have anywhere near the degree of evidence required to justify that level of prior confidence. I am quite certain that you don’t either. I would be very surprised if other active fleshy humans weren’t conscious, but still not “what the fuck” surprised.
I think I generally got your stance on that problem, and I think you are kind of latching on irrelevant bit and slightly transferring your confusion onto relevant bits. (You could summarize it as “I’m conscious, and other people look similar to me, so they are probably too, and by making the dissimilarity larger in some aspects, you make them less likely to be similar to me in that respect too” maybe?)
Like, the major reasoning step is “if EMs display human behaviors and they work by extremely closely emulating brain, then by cutting off all other causes that could have made meaty humans to display these behaviors, you get strong evidence that meaty humans display these behaviors for the reason of computational function that brain performs”.
And it would be very weird if some factors conspired to align and make emulations behave that way for a different reason that causes meaty humans to display them. Like, alternative hypotheses are either extremely fringe (e.g. there is an alien puppet master that puppets all EMs as a joke) or have very weak effects (e.g. while interacting with meaty humans you get some weak telepathy and that is absent while interacting with EMs)
So like, there is no significant loss of probability from meaty humans vs high-res human emulations with identical behavior.
I said it in the start of the post:
It would be VERY weird if this emulation exhibited all these human qualities for other reason than meaty humans exhibit them. Like, very extremely what the fuck surprising. Do you agree?
referring exactly to this transfer of a marker whatever it could be. I’m not pulling it out of nowhere by presenting some justification.
As it stands, I can determine that I am conscious but I do not know how or why I am conscious.
Well, presumably it’s a thought in your physical brain “oh, looks like I’m conscious”, we can extract it with AI mind reader or something. You are embedded into physics and cells and atoms, dude. Well, probably embedded. You can explore that further by effecting your physical brain and feeling the change from the inside. Just accumulating that intuition of how exactly you are expressed in the arrangement of cells. I think near future will give us that opportunity with fine control over our bodies and good observational tools. (and we can update on that predictable development in advance of it) But you can start now, by, I don’t know, drinking coffee.
I would be very surprised if other active fleshy humans weren’t conscious, but still not “what the fuck” surprised
But how exactly could you get that information, what evidence could you get. Like, what form of evidence you are envisioning here. I kind of get a feeling that you have that “conscious” as a free floating marker in your epistemology.
Well, it’s like saying if the {human in a car as a single system} is or is not conscious. Firstly it’s a weird question, because of course it is. And even if you chain the human to a wheel in such a way they will never disjoin from the car.
What I did is constrained possible actions of the human emulation. Not severely, the human still can talk whatever, just with constant compute budget, time or iterative commutation steps. Kind of like you can constrain actions of a meaty human by putting them in a jail or something. (… or in a time loop / repeated complete memory wipes)
How would you expect to this possibly cash out? Suppose there are human emulations running around doing all things exactly like meaty humans. How exactly do you expect that announcement of a high scientific council go, “We discovered that EMs are not conscious* because …. and that’s important because of …”. Is that completely out of model for you? Or like, can you give me (even goofy) scenario out of that possibility
Or do you think high resolution simulations will fail to replicate capabilities of humans, outlook of them? I.e special sauce/quantum fuckery/literal magic?
I don’t expect this to “cash out” at all, which is rather the point.
The only really surprising part would be that we had a way to determine for certain whether some other system is conscious or not at all. That is, very similar (high) levels of surprisal for either “ems are definitely conscious” or “ems are definitely not conscious”, but the ratio between them not being anywhere near “what the fuck” level.
As it stands, I can determine that I am conscious but I do not know how or why I am conscious. I have only a sample size of 1, and no way to access a larger sample. I cannot determine that you are conscious. I can’t even determine for certain when or whether I was conscious in the past, and there are some time periods for which I am very uncertain. I have hypotheses regarding all of these uncertainties, but there are no prospects of checking whether they’re actually correct.
So given that, why would I be “what the fuck” surprised if some of my currently favoured hypotheses such as “ems will be conscious” were actually false? I don’t have anywhere near the degree of evidence required to justify that level of prior confidence. I am quite certain that you don’t either. I would be very surprised if other active fleshy humans weren’t conscious, but still not “what the fuck” surprised.
I think I generally got your stance on that problem, and I think you are kind of latching on irrelevant bit and slightly transferring your confusion onto relevant bits. (You could summarize it as “I’m conscious, and other people look similar to me, so they are probably too, and by making the dissimilarity larger in some aspects, you make them less likely to be similar to me in that respect too” maybe?)
Like, the major reasoning step is “if EMs display human behaviors and they work by extremely closely emulating brain, then by cutting off all other causes that could have made meaty humans to display these behaviors, you get strong evidence that meaty humans display these behaviors for the reason of computational function that brain performs”.
And it would be very weird if some factors conspired to align and make emulations behave that way for a different reason that causes meaty humans to display them. Like, alternative hypotheses are either extremely fringe (e.g. there is an alien puppet master that puppets all EMs as a joke) or have very weak effects (e.g. while interacting with meaty humans you get some weak telepathy and that is absent while interacting with EMs)
So like, there is no significant loss of probability from meaty humans vs high-res human emulations with identical behavior.
I said it in the start of the post:
referring exactly to this transfer of a marker whatever it could be. I’m not pulling it out of nowhere by presenting some justification.
Well, presumably it’s a thought in your physical brain “oh, looks like I’m conscious”, we can extract it with AI mind reader or something. You are embedded into physics and cells and atoms, dude. Well, probably embedded. You can explore that further by effecting your physical brain and feeling the change from the inside. Just accumulating that intuition of how exactly you are expressed in the arrangement of cells. I think near future will give us that opportunity with fine control over our bodies and good observational tools. (and we can update on that predictable development in advance of it) But you can start now, by, I don’t know, drinking coffee.
But how exactly could you get that information, what evidence could you get. Like, what form of evidence you are envisioning here. I kind of get a feeling that you have that “conscious” as a free floating marker in your epistemology.