I.. also just realized that “Flamel” can’t possibly be dead. The rite Voldemort used on Hermione was not one of his own devising, but a piece of lore well known enough to have a usual result. “Flamel” had the stone of permanency for either 600 years, or much longer than that. And has more lore than Voldemort.
Yhea, that’s not a workable approach. Seriously, Flamel is centuries old and has had the key to eternal life for all of that. and the largest hoard of lore on the planet for most of it.
Trying to legilimency that mind has the most likely result of you becoming a drooling vegetable. Certainly, its not going to actually work. If it did, it would be point 1 on every single aspiring dark lords to-do list.
That’s actually my main reason for thinking “Not dead”. A lot. Really, just a an absurd number, of people must have already tried this. It doesn’t even matter what “It” is. Someone tried that one already. And failed. If Voldemort had attempted it in person? Maaaaybee. A hired hit? Nope.
I agree with your assessment of how powerful Perenelle/Flamel (side note: need a good portmanteau a la Quirrellmort) should be, having been able to outwit Baba Yaga in her sixth year and then having six hundred years of excellent leverage to accumulate lore and also maybe play with what the stone can do.
That objection notwithstanding, the most plausible non-Voldemort killer would be Bellatrix, using her superpower of very strict obedience to orders like “Just use AK and do not hesitate for any reason”.
The odds of that being true are steadily falling, if only because there aren’t many chapters left in which to have that revelation, and it’s hard to see how it would improve the plot at this point.
Yhea, that’s not a workable approach. Seriously, Flamel is centuries old and has had the key to eternal life for all of that. and the largest hoard of lore on the planet for most of it. Trying to legilimency that mind has the most likely result of you becoming a drooling vegetable.
Next you will ask why I did not kidnap, torture, and kill Perenelle after I learned the truth.”
This had not in fact been a question that had come into Harry’s mind.
Professor Quirrell continued to speak. “The answer is that Perenelle had foreseen and forestalled the ambitions of Dark Wizards like myself. ‘Nicholas Flamel’ publicly took Unbreakable Vows not to be coerced by any means into relinquishing his Stone—to guard immortality from the covetous, he claimed, as if that were a public service. I was afraid the Stone would be lost forever, if Perenelle died without saying where it was hidden, and her Vow prevented attempts at torture.
Perenelle’s safety relied on the Stone’s uniqueness and hiddenness, which is no longer a factor as far as Quirrell is concerned.
I did not attack her directly, for I was not sure of my great creation; it was not impossible that I would someday need to go begging to her for a dollop of reversed age.
Professor Quirrell looked dismayed. “I am wounded by the injustice of your accusation. I did not kill the one you know as Flamel. I simply commanded another to do so.”
Voldemort is unlikely to destroy what he could instead steal.
Voldemort is unlikely to leave power around where others can find it (and then use it against him).
There are potentially many vengeance spells that Flamel has set up in order to dissuade anyone from killing them.
The obvious plan is to steal Flamel’s lore and then induce Flamel to commit suicide. Legilimency serves for both purposes. This may be blocked by Occlumency or Dumbledore’s intervention, but using a controlled minion to simply kill Flamel seems to go against point 1.
So what mechanism do you suggest Voldemort used, in light of the above quote?
I read “another” as someone besides Quirrell. I don’t see how that disagrees with, say, V reading Flamel’s mind and then Bellatrix AKing F, or V reading F’s mind and then commanding F to kill themself, or so on.
The most obvious interpretation is that V just sent B to kill F, or Owled F a hand grenade, or so on. But I don’t see why V would prefer that option, especially given that even in the world where V has F’s lore, V would want Dumbledore (at least) to believe that F’s lore is gone.
Shorter point: Your argument supposes that Harry—at age 11 - has mental defenses better than Flamel at age >600. Seriously, no. Yes, the resonance, but if Legitimancy was that powerful, he would just have someone else dig through Harry’s skull.
Your argument supposes that Harry—at age 11 - has mental defenses better than Flamel at age >600.
It’s almost as if Harry is a mental clone of the most powerful Legilimens in recorded history.
Seriously, no.
ಠ_ಠ
“Perenelle has lived this long by knowing her limitations,” said Professor Quirrell. “She does not overestimate her own intellect, she is not prideful, if that were so she would have lost the Stone long ago. Perenelle will not try to think of a good Mirror-rule herself, not when Master Flamel can leave the matter in Dumbledore’s wiser hands…
Eh.. Voldemort is a legimens. But he isn’t an unusually good one at all. He actively dislikes actually reading peoples minds. He simply had a very impressive talent for entirely non-magical cold reading and inference. The wizarding public heard tales of that, and in the same way they failed to consider “hidden broomstick enchantments!” credited him with scary superpowers he didn’t actually have.
This is an inference from the text, but a high probability one. - However, it is also stated outright in the text that Harry’s mental defenses are nothing special. He’s an occlumens, but according to his teacher in that art, who bloody well should know, not a perfect one.
But he isn’t an unusually good one at all. He actively dislikes actually reading peoples minds.
The latter statement isn’t evidence for the former. Harry dislikes broomstick riding as an activity, but is still naturally gifted at it, and successful on the occasions when he needs to do it.
Here is our best example of Voldemort talking about his abilities:
Then in fury I threw aside masks and caution, I used my Legilimency, I dipped my fingers into the cesspit of his stupidity and tore out the truth from his mind. I did not understand and I wanted to understand. With my command of Legilimency I forced his tiny clerk-brain to live out alternatives, seeing what his clerk-brain would think of Lucius Malfoy, or Lord Voldemort, or Dumbledore standing in my place.
That sounds pretty advanced to me, and the way he speaks of it (“with my command of Legilimency”) suggests pride in his abilities as well.
Here is Moody talking about Voldemort’s abilities, with Dumbledore listening and not disagreeing:
“And I’ll warn you of this but once. Voldie isn’t like any other Legilimens in recorded history. He doesn’t need to look you in the eyes, and if your shields are that rusty he’d creep in so softly you’d never notice a thing.”
We are never told what the wizarding public at large thinks of Voldemort’s Legilimency powers, so I don’t know where you’re getting that argument.
And for the record, this is Mr Bester’s assessment of Harry:
You may indeed be able to learn Occlumency at eleven years of age. This astounds me. I had thought Mr. Dumbledore was pretending to be insane again. Your dissociative talent is so strong that I am surprised to find no other signs of childhood abuse, and you may become a perfect Occlumens in time.
It’s also worth noting that while Moody doesn’t seem especially impressed at the power of Harry’s Occlumency barriers, his only comment is that they are rusty, not that they provide insufficient protection for practical purposes.
Had more lore than Voldemort. Legilimency is fun.
Yhea, that’s not a workable approach. Seriously, Flamel is centuries old and has had the key to eternal life for all of that. and the largest hoard of lore on the planet for most of it. Trying to legilimency that mind has the most likely result of you becoming a drooling vegetable. Certainly, its not going to actually work. If it did, it would be point 1 on every single aspiring dark lords to-do list. That’s actually my main reason for thinking “Not dead”. A lot. Really, just a an absurd number, of people must have already tried this. It doesn’t even matter what “It” is. Someone tried that one already. And failed. If Voldemort had attempted it in person? Maaaaybee. A hired hit? Nope.
I agree with your assessment of how powerful Perenelle/Flamel (side note: need a good portmanteau a la Quirrellmort) should be, having been able to outwit Baba Yaga in her sixth year and then having six hundred years of excellent leverage to accumulate lore and also maybe play with what the stone can do.
That objection notwithstanding, the most plausible non-Voldemort killer would be Bellatrix, using her superpower of very strict obedience to orders like “Just use AK and do not hesitate for any reason”.
Flamelle.
I’m going with this.
It’s not Perenelle, it’s still Baba Yaga, who killed a sixth-year dark witch, stole her identity, and faked her own death.
The odds of that being true are steadily falling, if only because there aren’t many chapters left in which to have that revelation, and it’s hard to see how it would improve the plot at this point.
On the contrary, tthe odds are increasing, since we’re running out of opportunity for this deduction from the text to be contradicted. (^_^)
Perenelle’s surname is also Flamel. (You could use a portmanteau for Perenelle/Nicolas.)
Nicolelle?
The relevant section (Ch 108):
Perenelle’s safety relied on the Stone’s uniqueness and hiddenness, which is no longer a factor as far as Quirrell is concerned.
Voldemort is unlikely to destroy what he could instead steal.
Voldemort is unlikely to leave power around where others can find it (and then use it against him).
There are potentially many vengeance spells that Flamel has set up in order to dissuade anyone from killing them.
The obvious plan is to steal Flamel’s lore and then induce Flamel to commit suicide. Legilimency serves for both purposes. This may be blocked by Occlumency or Dumbledore’s intervention, but using a controlled minion to simply kill Flamel seems to go against point 1.
So what mechanism do you suggest Voldemort used, in light of the above quote?
I read “another” as someone besides Quirrell. I don’t see how that disagrees with, say, V reading Flamel’s mind and then Bellatrix AKing F, or V reading F’s mind and then commanding F to kill themself, or so on.
The most obvious interpretation is that V just sent B to kill F, or Owled F a hand grenade, or so on. But I don’t see why V would prefer that option, especially given that even in the world where V has F’s lore, V would want Dumbledore (at least) to believe that F’s lore is gone.
Shorter point: Your argument supposes that Harry—at age 11 - has mental defenses better than Flamel at age >600. Seriously, no. Yes, the resonance, but if Legitimancy was that powerful, he would just have someone else dig through Harry’s skull.
It’s almost as if Harry is a mental clone of the most powerful Legilimens in recorded history.
ಠ_ಠ
Eh.. Voldemort is a legimens. But he isn’t an unusually good one at all. He actively dislikes actually reading peoples minds. He simply had a very impressive talent for entirely non-magical cold reading and inference. The wizarding public heard tales of that, and in the same way they failed to consider “hidden broomstick enchantments!” credited him with scary superpowers he didn’t actually have.
This is an inference from the text, but a high probability one. - However, it is also stated outright in the text that Harry’s mental defenses are nothing special. He’s an occlumens, but according to his teacher in that art, who bloody well should know, not a perfect one.
The latter statement isn’t evidence for the former. Harry dislikes broomstick riding as an activity, but is still naturally gifted at it, and successful on the occasions when he needs to do it.
Here is our best example of Voldemort talking about his abilities:
That sounds pretty advanced to me, and the way he speaks of it (“with my command of Legilimency”) suggests pride in his abilities as well.
Here is Moody talking about Voldemort’s abilities, with Dumbledore listening and not disagreeing:
We are never told what the wizarding public at large thinks of Voldemort’s Legilimency powers, so I don’t know where you’re getting that argument.
And for the record, this is Mr Bester’s assessment of Harry:
It’s also worth noting that while Moody doesn’t seem especially impressed at the power of Harry’s Occlumency barriers, his only comment is that they are rusty, not that they provide insufficient protection for practical purposes.