When he was alone in the room, the old wizard looked down at the map, which had now written upon itself a fine line drawing of the Gryffindor dorms in which they stood, the small handwritten Albus P.W.B. Dumbledore the only name left therein.
The old wizard smoothed the map, bent over it, and whispered, “Find Tom Riddle.”
Chapter 108:
“Yes,” Harry said in an even voice. “What did you do to the Weasley twins? Dumbledore thought—I mean, the school saw the Headmaster go to the Weasley twins after Hermione was arrested. Dumbledore thought you, as Voldemort, had wondered why Dumbledore had done so, and that you’d checked on the Weasley twins, found and took their map, and Obliviated them afterward?”
“Dumbledore was quite correct,” Professor Quirrell said, shaking his head as though in wonderment. “He was also an utter fool to leave the Hogwarts Map in the possession of those two idiots. I had an unpleasant shock after I recovered the Map; it showed my name and yours correctly! The Weasley idiots had thought it a mere malfunction, especially after you received your Cloak and your Time-Turner. If Dumbledore had kept the Map himself—if the Weasleys had ever spoken of it to Dumbledore—but they did not, thankfully.”
It seems like Dumbledore knows quite a bit more than Voldemort thought. Did he know Q=V and HJPEV=TMR?
And finally, Chapter 110:
“I am there,” Albus Dumbledore said, “and also inside the Mirror, unfortunately for you. I have always been here, all along.”
Always? That’s an odd turn of phrase. Who was elsewhere?
It seems like Dumbledore knows quite a bit more than Voldemort thought. Did he know Q=V and HJPEV=TMR?
At least of the latter, see the “I laughed and I laughed when I realized you [Voldemort] had made a Good Voldemort to oppose the Evil.”
Of the former, yes, I think he knew. See his over the top protestations of how he was oh so ever so completely fooled by Quirrell, had absolutely no idea whatesoever that he was Voldemort, and felt like a fool and a moron for missing it.
Dumbledore’s an over-the-top kind of guy. I got the impression that he was being genuine in his comments re: Quirrell; see for example his initial confusion when he sees him in the mirror.
On the other hand, I’m now pretty sure that he knew Harry was a Riddle instance, or at least something similar, all along.
I’ve been wondering about this for a while, but never had a chance to do the required detective work. Were Harry and the Defense Professor in the castle at the time? If so, when Dumbles said “Find Tom Riddle...” he most definitely learned that HP and QQ were both Tom Riddles.
So… were they in the castle at the time? Or was QQ at St. Mungo’s or the DMLE?
Thought so. Seems like a prettyclosecall to me. Thanks.
Although, really, it seems a bit contrived. If QQ was identified to the wards as the defense professor, wouldn’t that be what the Hogwarts security system sees?
I’d read it as “Defense Professor” being a role with a package of permissions being assigned to a user. The map shows usernames, so to speak, not what roles or permissions they’ve been assigned in some other portion of the security system.
I don’t think it goes : username (Tom Riddle) ⇒ permissions (Defense Professor) or Harry (recognized as Tom Riddle too) would have the Defense Professor permissions.
I mostly assumed that the map and the wards are two different systems, maybe not crafted by the same person (not the same founder if they were made by the 4 founders, or by different headmasters if they were added afterwards).
And the Weasley twins weren’t about to turn the Map over to Dumbledore. It would have been an unforgivable insult to the Marauders—the four unknowns who’d managed to steal part of the Hogwarts security system, something probably forged by Salazar Slytherin himself, and twist it into a tool for student pranking.
Not literally. It’s possinle that the Marauders stole some other thing, and repurposed it into the Map.
But honestly, James Potter, Remus Lupin, Sirius Black and Peter Pettigrew were none of them great wizards, especially in their teens, so the less their involvement in the Map’s creation, the more plausible I find the theory.
Actually, we aren’t sure that Harry doesn’t have Defense Professor permissions, are we?
Indeed. I don’t think Harry’s ever tried to do something that only a professor can do, or that would have markedly different results if a professor tried to do it.
Edit: “markedly visible” was meant to be “markedly different”. I need more sleep.
I assumed that with all his experimenting he did in a year, he must have triggered a ward at a point. He doesn’t all the wards, and since we expect them to be quite extensive, it’s very unlikely he never triggered one.
So what are our hypothesis ?
Harry is not recognized as Defense Professor by the wards.
Harry is recognized as DP by the wards, never triggered a ward, but that didn’t seem suspicious to Dumbledore because there are fewer wards I imagined there to be, so even with lots of experimenting, it’s quite normal he didn’t trigger one.
Harry is recognized as DP by the wards, never triggered a ward, and Dumbledore failed to realize it, due to a variation of the “availability bias”, we don’t tend to notice events that fail to occur (while they should) as much as events that occur (while they shouldn’t).
Harry is recognized as DP by the wards, and Dumbledore did suspect it. Then, Dumbledore knowing that Harry is likely a Tom Riddle, must have suspected Quirrel to be a Tom Riddle. He knew much more that he claimed, and he lied when he said to Quirrelmort that he didn’t suspect anything.
I would put most probability on 1, but none of 2, 3, 4 can be excluded at this point, yes.
and since we expect them to be quite extensive, it’s very unlikely he never triggered one.
I do not expect this. Time-tuners are fine. Invisibility cloaks are fine. Draco’s torture hex was fine. The only thing I can think of that Harry did that might have triggered a ward without permissions was bring in the transfigured unicorn. And that isn’t conclusive at all. It was transfigured, and as far as I know the Defense Professor can’t just bring magical creatures in to Hogwarts either.
We have some evidence Harry has defense professor permissions and didn’t trip any wards because of that. He practiced memory charms. In Hogwarts. If the castle thought of him as a student, that would have set alarms ringing, with professor permissions, no alarms. Not strong evidence, because Harry was Dumbledores pet disaster, and it is entirely possible he’d hear an alarm like that, check up on what Harry was doing, and ignore it as long as he wasn’t casting it on students. But it’s an implication.
I just noticed something:
Chapter 79:
Chapter 108:
It seems like Dumbledore knows quite a bit more than Voldemort thought. Did he know Q=V and HJPEV=TMR?
And finally, Chapter 110:
Always? That’s an odd turn of phrase. Who was elsewhere?
At least of the latter, see the “I laughed and I laughed when I realized you [Voldemort] had made a Good Voldemort to oppose the Evil.”
Of the former, yes, I think he knew. See his over the top protestations of how he was oh so ever so completely fooled by Quirrell, had absolutely no idea whatesoever that he was Voldemort, and felt like a fool and a moron for missing it.
It does cast a different light on that time he asks Harry why Voldemort does the things he does.
Dumbledore’s an over-the-top kind of guy. I got the impression that he was being genuine in his comments re: Quirrell; see for example his initial confusion when he sees him in the mirror.
On the other hand, I’m now pretty sure that he knew Harry was a Riddle instance, or at least something similar, all along.
I’ve been wondering about this for a while, but never had a chance to do the required detective work. Were Harry and the Defense Professor in the castle at the time? If so, when Dumbles said “Find Tom Riddle...” he most definitely learned that HP and QQ were both Tom Riddles.
So… were they in the castle at the time? Or was QQ at St. Mungo’s or the DMLE?
At the time when Dumbledore uses the map, Harry is in Hogwarts, investigating, while QQ is at the DMLE, being investigated.
Thought so. Seems like a pretty close call to me. Thanks.
Although, really, it seems a bit contrived. If QQ was identified to the wards as the defense professor, wouldn’t that be what the Hogwarts security system sees?
I’d read it as “Defense Professor” being a role with a package of permissions being assigned to a user. The map shows usernames, so to speak, not what roles or permissions they’ve been assigned in some other portion of the security system.
I don’t think it goes : username (Tom Riddle) ⇒ permissions (Defense Professor) or Harry (recognized as Tom Riddle too) would have the Defense Professor permissions.
I mostly assumed that the map and the wards are two different systems, maybe not crafted by the same person (not the same founder if they were made by the 4 founders, or by different headmasters if they were added afterwards).
In canon, the map was made by Harry’s dad and his three friends.
HPMOR seems to have changed this.
That is not literally a contradiction.
Not literally. It’s possinle that the Marauders stole some other thing, and repurposed it into the Map.
But honestly, James Potter, Remus Lupin, Sirius Black and Peter Pettigrew were none of them great wizards, especially in their teens, so the less their involvement in the Map’s creation, the more plausible I find the theory.
Yeah, I’m thinking separate systems but there’s a lot we don’t know about how this works and why the discrepancies are there.
Actually, we aren’t sure that Harry doesn’t have Defense Professor permissions, are we?
Indeed. I don’t think Harry’s ever tried to do something that only a professor can do, or that would have markedly different results if a professor tried to do it.
Edit: “markedly visible” was meant to be “markedly different”. I need more sleep.
Like, say, brainwash or torture a student.
Hum, good question.
I assumed that with all his experimenting he did in a year, he must have triggered a ward at a point. He doesn’t all the wards, and since we expect them to be quite extensive, it’s very unlikely he never triggered one.
So what are our hypothesis ?
Harry is not recognized as Defense Professor by the wards.
Harry is recognized as DP by the wards, never triggered a ward, but that didn’t seem suspicious to Dumbledore because there are fewer wards I imagined there to be, so even with lots of experimenting, it’s quite normal he didn’t trigger one.
Harry is recognized as DP by the wards, never triggered a ward, and Dumbledore failed to realize it, due to a variation of the “availability bias”, we don’t tend to notice events that fail to occur (while they should) as much as events that occur (while they shouldn’t).
Harry is recognized as DP by the wards, and Dumbledore did suspect it. Then, Dumbledore knowing that Harry is likely a Tom Riddle, must have suspected Quirrel to be a Tom Riddle. He knew much more that he claimed, and he lied when he said to Quirrelmort that he didn’t suspect anything.
I would put most probability on 1, but none of 2, 3, 4 can be excluded at this point, yes.
I do not expect this. Time-tuners are fine. Invisibility cloaks are fine. Draco’s torture hex was fine. The only thing I can think of that Harry did that might have triggered a ward without permissions was bring in the transfigured unicorn. And that isn’t conclusive at all. It was transfigured, and as far as I know the Defense Professor can’t just bring magical creatures in to Hogwarts either.
I don’t think it’s been tested.
We have some evidence Harry has defense professor permissions and didn’t trip any wards because of that. He practiced memory charms. In Hogwarts. If the castle thought of him as a student, that would have set alarms ringing, with professor permissions, no alarms. Not strong evidence, because Harry was Dumbledores pet disaster, and it is entirely possible he’d hear an alarm like that, check up on what Harry was doing, and ignore it as long as he wasn’t casting it on students. But it’s an implication.
Would you quote me where Harry used obliviate in Hogwarts on someone that would have tripped wards? I don’t recall that.