(cont.)
I guess it is likely true that more people find about neoreaction on LessWrong than vice versa. However, it is not obvious to me that hardly anyone would even join LessWrong to discuss LW topics after being exposed to neoreaction first. I mean, MoreRight recommends its readers to read LessWrong and SlateStarCodex as well. Xenosystems has LW, SSC and OvercomingBias on its blogroll. Radish Magazine’s list of the people they admire includes Eliezer Yudkowsky. Obviously some of those people were LWers themselves, some might post links to LessWrong because they try to make their place more comfortable to LWers who might wander there. But still, I hope that at least some neoreactionaries would come here with an interest in LW topics (cognitive biases, future of humanity and artificial intelligence). I guess that it is probably true that neoreaction gains more members from LW than vice versa. This is the community layer. But there is also the intellectual toolbox layer. And I think that if LessWrong started discussing politics, having a few neoreactionaries (not just any neoreactionaries, but those who think in LW terms, are able to notice cognitive biases) here would probably be beneficial. And I guess that if we are to overcome biases we will have to deal with politics. You see, I fear that by paying attention only to cognitive biases that are easy to test in the lab we are like a proverbial drunk man searching for his keys under a lamp-post. For example, field of cognitive biases researches what happens inside a person’s head, but certain things from political science and economics such as median voter’s theorem, Duverger’s law and Motte-and-Bailey effect (when instead of happening inside a person’s head, it happens to a movement—when different people from the same movement occupy motte and bailey (I think that individual and group motte-and-bailey’s are quite distinct)), seems to be analogous enough so as to be thought of as yet another kind of biases that prevent from optimal decision making at a group level. And if we were to start discussion about things like these, it would be hard to avoid using political examples altogether. By the way, the idea that the list of biases LessWrong usually talks about is not exhaustive enough has already been discussed here.
So even if we try having rational debates about politics, I would prefer to try them on some other political topics.
Yes, definitely. I think that the political topics (especially at the beginning) would have to be much more specific and less related to the questions of identity.
Motte-and-Bailey effect (when instead of happening inside a person’s head, it happens to a movement—when different people from the same movement occupy motte and bailey (I think that individual and group motte-and-bailey’s are quite distinct))
This could just as easily be described, with the opposite connotation, as the movement containing some weakmans*, which makes me think that we need a better way of talking about this phenomenon. ‘Palatability spread’ or ‘presentability spread’? But that isn’t quite right. A hybrid term like ‘mottemans’ and ‘baileymans’ would be the worst thing ever. Perhaps we need a new metaphor, such as the movement being a large object where some parts are closer to you, and some parts are further away, and they all have some unifying qualities, and it is usually more productive to argue against the part that is closer to you rather than the part that is far away, even though focusing on the part that is far away makes it easy to other the whole edifice (weakmanning); and motte-and-baileying is ascribing to the further-away part of your own movement but pretending that you are part of the closer part.
*in the technical sense; their positions may be plenty strong but they are less palatable
Edit: Whoops no one will see this because it’s in an old open thread. Oh well.
What I had in mind was a situation when “a person from outside” talks to a person who “occupies a bailey of the movement” (for the sake of simplicity let’s call them “a movement”, although it doesn’t have to be a movement in a traditional sense). If the former notices that the position of the latter one is weakly supported, then the latter appeals not to the motte position itself, but to the existence of high status people who occupy motte position, e.g. “our movement has a lot of academic researchers on our side” or something along those lines, even though the position of the said person doesn’t necessarily resemble that of the “motte people” beyond a few aspects, therefore “a person from outside” should not criticize their movement. In other words, a criticism against a particular position is interpreted to be a criticism against the whole movement and “motte people”, thus they invoke “a strongman” do deflect the criticism from themselves.
I think you made a very good point. From the inside, if an outsider criticizes a certain position of the movement, it looks as if they attacked a weakman of the movement and since it feels like they attacked a movement itself, an insider of the movement feels that they should present a stronger case for the movement, because allowing an outsider to debate weakmen without having to debate stronger positions could give the said outsider and other observers an impression that these weakmen was what the movement was all about. However, from the said outsider’s perspective it looks like they criticized a particular position of a movement, but then (due to solidarity or something similar) the movement’s strongmen were fielded against them, and from the outsider’s perspective it does look like that the movement pulled a move that looks very similar to a motte-and-bailey.
Whoops no one will see this because it’s in an old open thread. Oh well.
I think that replying to old comments should be encouraged. Because otherwise if everyone feels that they should reply as quickly as possible (or otherwise not reply at all), they will not think their positions through and post them in a hurry.
(cont.) I guess it is likely true that more people find about neoreaction on LessWrong than vice versa. However, it is not obvious to me that hardly anyone would even join LessWrong to discuss LW topics after being exposed to neoreaction first. I mean, MoreRight recommends its readers to read LessWrong and SlateStarCodex as well. Xenosystems has LW, SSC and OvercomingBias on its blogroll. Radish Magazine’s list of the people they admire includes Eliezer Yudkowsky. Obviously some of those people were LWers themselves, some might post links to LessWrong because they try to make their place more comfortable to LWers who might wander there. But still, I hope that at least some neoreactionaries would come here with an interest in LW topics (cognitive biases, future of humanity and artificial intelligence). I guess that it is probably true that neoreaction gains more members from LW than vice versa. This is the community layer. But there is also the intellectual toolbox layer. And I think that if LessWrong started discussing politics, having a few neoreactionaries (not just any neoreactionaries, but those who think in LW terms, are able to notice cognitive biases) here would probably be beneficial. And I guess that if we are to overcome biases we will have to deal with politics. You see, I fear that by paying attention only to cognitive biases that are easy to test in the lab we are like a proverbial drunk man searching for his keys under a lamp-post. For example, field of cognitive biases researches what happens inside a person’s head, but certain things from political science and economics such as median voter’s theorem, Duverger’s law and Motte-and-Bailey effect (when instead of happening inside a person’s head, it happens to a movement—when different people from the same movement occupy motte and bailey (I think that individual and group motte-and-bailey’s are quite distinct)), seems to be analogous enough so as to be thought of as yet another kind of biases that prevent from optimal decision making at a group level. And if we were to start discussion about things like these, it would be hard to avoid using political examples altogether. By the way, the idea that the list of biases LessWrong usually talks about is not exhaustive enough has already been discussed here.
Yes, definitely. I think that the political topics (especially at the beginning) would have to be much more specific and less related to the questions of identity.
This could just as easily be described, with the opposite connotation, as the movement containing some weakmans*, which makes me think that we need a better way of talking about this phenomenon. ‘Palatability spread’ or ‘presentability spread’? But that isn’t quite right. A hybrid term like ‘mottemans’ and ‘baileymans’ would be the worst thing ever. Perhaps we need a new metaphor, such as the movement being a large object where some parts are closer to you, and some parts are further away, and they all have some unifying qualities, and it is usually more productive to argue against the part that is closer to you rather than the part that is far away, even though focusing on the part that is far away makes it easy to other the whole edifice (weakmanning); and motte-and-baileying is ascribing to the further-away part of your own movement but pretending that you are part of the closer part.
*in the technical sense; their positions may be plenty strong but they are less palatable
Edit: Whoops no one will see this because it’s in an old open thread. Oh well.
What I had in mind was a situation when “a person from outside” talks to a person who “occupies a bailey of the movement” (for the sake of simplicity let’s call them “a movement”, although it doesn’t have to be a movement in a traditional sense). If the former notices that the position of the latter one is weakly supported, then the latter appeals not to the motte position itself, but to the existence of high status people who occupy motte position, e.g. “our movement has a lot of academic researchers on our side” or something along those lines, even though the position of the said person doesn’t necessarily resemble that of the “motte people” beyond a few aspects, therefore “a person from outside” should not criticize their movement. In other words, a criticism against a particular position is interpreted to be a criticism against the whole movement and “motte people”, thus they invoke “a strongman” do deflect the criticism from themselves.
I think you made a very good point. From the inside, if an outsider criticizes a certain position of the movement, it looks as if they attacked a weakman of the movement and since it feels like they attacked a movement itself, an insider of the movement feels that they should present a stronger case for the movement, because allowing an outsider to debate weakmen without having to debate stronger positions could give the said outsider and other observers an impression that these weakmen was what the movement was all about. However, from the said outsider’s perspective it looks like they criticized a particular position of a movement, but then (due to solidarity or something similar) the movement’s strongmen were fielded against them, and from the outsider’s perspective it does look like that the movement pulled a move that looks very similar to a motte-and-bailey.
I think that replying to old comments should be encouraged. Because otherwise if everyone feels that they should reply as quickly as possible (or otherwise not reply at all), they will not think their positions through and post them in a hurry.