Thanks. That may be rational and all, but any psychological benefits I could get out of “wishing” would probably be countered by strong negative feelings of cheesiness.
Also, as far as I can tell, all the benefits of prayer came from really believing in an all-knowing, all-loving personal God.
Anyway, I’m totally fine, at least for now. I don’t feel like I need/have ever needed much self-therapy, but that doesn’t mean I was immune to the therapeutic effects. When I first de-converted, I probably even did it because subconsciously I thought I would be happier without Christianity, and I still think I am! I just also realized that, truth aside for a moment, there are legitimate pros and cons to believing either side.
Also, as far as I can tell, all the benefits of prayer came from really believing in an all-knowing, all-loving personal God.
The first kind of prayer you listed was prayers of gratitude. Gratitude journaling seems to be very similar and produce benefits without acknowledging a God.
The same goes for many kind of gratitude meditation.
When it comes to asking for redemption, you can do focusing with the feelings surrounding the action you feel bad about. You can also do various kinds of parts therapy where you speak to a specific part of your subconscious and ask it what you have to do to make up.
I know about gratitude journaling. I actually suggested my mom do at bedtime it with my youngest sister when it seemed like she might be getting spoiled and grumpy, and it’s worked really well. It’s a great tool, I just don’t think it would yield any additional benefits for me, since luckily, I tend to think about things I’m happy/grateful about all day long. Those prayers were spontaneous; it’s not like I said “ok, now I’m going to sit down and think of things to thank God for.” The only difference after deconverting, when these prayers still came instinctually, was that I couldn’t say “thanks God” anymore… it’s hard to explain, but “thanks universe” just isn’t the same.
Anyway, I’ve come to realize that with many of the things I’m thankful for, I can redirect the thoughts of gratitude toward people in my life. For example, instead of thanking God for the ability to run and for the enjoyment I get out of it, I can think fondly of my parents for sacrificing to send me to a Lutheran high school (which I otherwise might have considered a sad waste of their tight budget) that happened to have a great team and really knowledgeable, experienced, motivating coaches, since if I’d never gone there, I probably would have never come to love running the way I do now. Instead of thanking God for giving me such a great job, I can redirect my gratitude toward my friend’s dad, who was into economics and lent me books that made me aware enough of the sunk cost fallacy to quit my old one after only two weeks and move across the country.
As for asking for redemption, I’m pretty good at apologizing, and people I know are pretty good at forgiveness. It’s hard to explain feeling loved in a truly unconditional way, but it was more of a bonus than anything. On a scale of 1-100, I miss this about a 5.
Your tips are good, and I would recommend them to others, but personally, I think that all I’ll need is the time to gradually readjust.
The only difference after deconverting, when these prayers still came instinctually, was that I couldn’t say “thanks God” anymore… it’s hard to explain, but “thanks universe” just isn’t the same.
You had a ritual and conditioned yourself to feel good whenever you say “thanks God”. You don’t have that conditioning for the phrase “thanks universe”.
Your tips are good, and I would recommend them to others, but personally, I think that all I’ll need is the time to gradually readjust.
Yes, time solves a lot. If you still feel there something missing however, there are way to patch all the holes.
You had a ritual and conditioned yourself to feel good whenever you say “thanks God”. You don’t have that conditioning for the phrase “thanks universe”.
Do you come from a Christian background? Have you ever really, truly, trustingly believed? I mean, you may be right that it’s just conditioning, and I’m sure that’s at least part of it. But you don’t think believing you’re special/loved as an individual, part of someone’s incomprehensible but perfect plan, could have any kind of special effect?
No, but I have seen a lot of different mental interventions. There are a lot of different ways to get to certain effects. Effects feel only special if you know just one way to get to the effect.
I have seen people cry because of the beauty of life without them being on drugs or any religion being involved.
Believing that one is loved is certainly useful but the core belief is not “I’m loved by God” but the generalized “I’m loved”. Children learn “I’m loved” or “I’m not loved” when they are very little based on the experiences with their parents.
As they grow older they then apply that belief in multiple situations. A Christian will feel deeply loved by God or he might be afraid of God.
If you deeply feel loved by God you shouldn’t have a problem to feel deeply loved by your friends because it’s the same core belief. You still have the same fun with your old Christian friends and family and feel that they are understanding where you are coming from.
Your belief might in “I’m loved” might be a bit shaken, but I think the core will still be intact.
If it’s “triggering” you, then of course don’t do it.
However, I believe there are benefits in some religious rituals, which would be nice to have without accepting the supernatural framework. For example, it helps me think more clearly when instead of just having thoughts in my head, I speak them aloud. And that’s part of what praying does. (And, as you say, another part is the belief in Magical Sky Daddy who listens and will do something about it. That part cannot be salvaged.) Also, when people pray together, they hear each other’s wishes, and may help to each other, or give useful advice. This can be replaced with simple conversation about one’s goals and dreams; it’s just that most people usually don’t have this conversation on a regular schedule. Which is a pity, because maybe at this moment some of my friends have a problem I could help solving, they just don’t bother telling me about it, so I don’t know.
Another part of religious rituals is more or less gratitude journaling. (Related LW debates: 1, 2, 3.)
From epistemic point of view, I believe religion is stupid, but I don’t want to “revert stupidity”. Just because there are verses about washing feet in Bible, I am not going to stop washing my feet. I am trying to do the same with psychological hygiene; not to avoid a potentially useful psychological or sociological hack just because I first found it in religious context.
As a sidenote, LW community seems divided on this topic. Some people would like to reinvent some religious rituals for secular purposes, some people find it creepy. I am on the side of using the rituals, but perhaps that’s because I never was a part of an organized religion, so I don’t have strong feelings associated with that.
This can be replaced with simple conversation about one’s goals and dreams; it’s just that most people usually don’t have this conversation on a regular schedule. Which is a pity, because maybe at this moment some of my friends have a problem I could help solving, they just don’t bother telling me about it, so I don’t know.
Definitely, I should make an effort to have these conversations with my friends. I have yet to decide on any goals myself, but I would love to encourage my friends with their goals.
Gratitude journaling—see my reply to ChristianKI’s comment. But yeah, it’s a great tool that I’ve recommended to others who don’t naturally “look on the bright side.”
As for secular rituals—I am on the creepy side, but I think you’re right that my feelings come from having been part of an organized religion. I look at secular rituals and they seem to have maybe 10% of cherry-picked Christianity’s psychological pleasantness. So it looks like a pathetic substitute. But from your less biased perspective, things that can cause even a small increase in people’s happiness can still totally be worth doing. Someone sent me this link about a secular “church” and it actually seemed pretty cool. I would probably even go. But I’d have to overcome the impulse to compare it to a real church, because they’re very different things...
Thanks. That may be rational and all, but any psychological benefits I could get out of “wishing” would probably be countered by strong negative feelings of cheesiness.
Also, as far as I can tell, all the benefits of prayer came from really believing in an all-knowing, all-loving personal God.
Anyway, I’m totally fine, at least for now. I don’t feel like I need/have ever needed much self-therapy, but that doesn’t mean I was immune to the therapeutic effects. When I first de-converted, I probably even did it because subconsciously I thought I would be happier without Christianity, and I still think I am! I just also realized that, truth aside for a moment, there are legitimate pros and cons to believing either side.
The first kind of prayer you listed was prayers of gratitude. Gratitude journaling seems to be very similar and produce benefits without acknowledging a God. The same goes for many kind of gratitude meditation.
When it comes to asking for redemption, you can do focusing with the feelings surrounding the action you feel bad about. You can also do various kinds of parts therapy where you speak to a specific part of your subconscious and ask it what you have to do to make up.
Thanks!
I know about gratitude journaling. I actually suggested my mom do at bedtime it with my youngest sister when it seemed like she might be getting spoiled and grumpy, and it’s worked really well. It’s a great tool, I just don’t think it would yield any additional benefits for me, since luckily, I tend to think about things I’m happy/grateful about all day long. Those prayers were spontaneous; it’s not like I said “ok, now I’m going to sit down and think of things to thank God for.” The only difference after deconverting, when these prayers still came instinctually, was that I couldn’t say “thanks God” anymore… it’s hard to explain, but “thanks universe” just isn’t the same.
Anyway, I’ve come to realize that with many of the things I’m thankful for, I can redirect the thoughts of gratitude toward people in my life. For example, instead of thanking God for the ability to run and for the enjoyment I get out of it, I can think fondly of my parents for sacrificing to send me to a Lutheran high school (which I otherwise might have considered a sad waste of their tight budget) that happened to have a great team and really knowledgeable, experienced, motivating coaches, since if I’d never gone there, I probably would have never come to love running the way I do now. Instead of thanking God for giving me such a great job, I can redirect my gratitude toward my friend’s dad, who was into economics and lent me books that made me aware enough of the sunk cost fallacy to quit my old one after only two weeks and move across the country.
As for asking for redemption, I’m pretty good at apologizing, and people I know are pretty good at forgiveness. It’s hard to explain feeling loved in a truly unconditional way, but it was more of a bonus than anything. On a scale of 1-100, I miss this about a 5.
Your tips are good, and I would recommend them to others, but personally, I think that all I’ll need is the time to gradually readjust.
You had a ritual and conditioned yourself to feel good whenever you say “thanks God”. You don’t have that conditioning for the phrase “thanks universe”.
Yes, time solves a lot. If you still feel there something missing however, there are way to patch all the holes.
Do you come from a Christian background? Have you ever really, truly, trustingly believed? I mean, you may be right that it’s just conditioning, and I’m sure that’s at least part of it. But you don’t think believing you’re special/loved as an individual, part of someone’s incomprehensible but perfect plan, could have any kind of special effect?
No, but I have seen a lot of different mental interventions. There are a lot of different ways to get to certain effects. Effects feel only special if you know just one way to get to the effect. I have seen people cry because of the beauty of life without them being on drugs or any religion being involved.
Believing that one is loved is certainly useful but the core belief is not “I’m loved by God” but the generalized “I’m loved”. Children learn “I’m loved” or “I’m not loved” when they are very little based on the experiences with their parents. As they grow older they then apply that belief in multiple situations. A Christian will feel deeply loved by God or he might be afraid of God.
If you deeply feel loved by God you shouldn’t have a problem to feel deeply loved by your friends because it’s the same core belief. You still have the same fun with your old Christian friends and family and feel that they are understanding where you are coming from.
Your belief might in “I’m loved” might be a bit shaken, but I think the core will still be intact.
If it’s “triggering” you, then of course don’t do it.
However, I believe there are benefits in some religious rituals, which would be nice to have without accepting the supernatural framework. For example, it helps me think more clearly when instead of just having thoughts in my head, I speak them aloud. And that’s part of what praying does. (And, as you say, another part is the belief in Magical Sky Daddy who listens and will do something about it. That part cannot be salvaged.) Also, when people pray together, they hear each other’s wishes, and may help to each other, or give useful advice. This can be replaced with simple conversation about one’s goals and dreams; it’s just that most people usually don’t have this conversation on a regular schedule. Which is a pity, because maybe at this moment some of my friends have a problem I could help solving, they just don’t bother telling me about it, so I don’t know.
Another part of religious rituals is more or less gratitude journaling. (Related LW debates: 1, 2, 3.)
From epistemic point of view, I believe religion is stupid, but I don’t want to “revert stupidity”. Just because there are verses about washing feet in Bible, I am not going to stop washing my feet. I am trying to do the same with psychological hygiene; not to avoid a potentially useful psychological or sociological hack just because I first found it in religious context.
As a sidenote, LW community seems divided on this topic. Some people would like to reinvent some religious rituals for secular purposes, some people find it creepy. I am on the side of using the rituals, but perhaps that’s because I never was a part of an organized religion, so I don’t have strong feelings associated with that.
Definitely, I should make an effort to have these conversations with my friends. I have yet to decide on any goals myself, but I would love to encourage my friends with their goals.
Gratitude journaling—see my reply to ChristianKI’s comment. But yeah, it’s a great tool that I’ve recommended to others who don’t naturally “look on the bright side.”
As for secular rituals—I am on the creepy side, but I think you’re right that my feelings come from having been part of an organized religion. I look at secular rituals and they seem to have maybe 10% of cherry-picked Christianity’s psychological pleasantness. So it looks like a pathetic substitute. But from your less biased perspective, things that can cause even a small increase in people’s happiness can still totally be worth doing. Someone sent me this link about a secular “church” and it actually seemed pretty cool. I would probably even go. But I’d have to overcome the impulse to compare it to a real church, because they’re very different things...