There have been informed discussions of this subject on LW before.
Particularly to parties informed on the subject: Can someone explain the court’s reasoning? I can’t quite follow why Knox and Sollecito were first convicted, then acquitted and yet are convicted once again.
Particularly to parties informed on the subject: Can someone explain the court’s reasoning?
As is usual in the Italian system, the court itself will publish its “motivations” within 90 days.
I can’t quite follow why Knox and Sollecito were first convicted, then acquitted and yet are convicted once again.
If by “why” you mean “how it is procedurally possible”, that can of course be answered now. Italian “trials” have three stages: first-level court, second-level court, and Supreme Court . The original first-level verdict (December 2009) was a conviction (this was the occasion of my original posts here); that was then changed to an acquittal at the second level (October 2011); that acquittal was then canceled by the Supreme Court (March 2013), who ordered a new second-level trial, which has now ended in another conviction. The case will thus go back to the Supreme Court again over the next year or so.
(Yes, this process could theoretically go on forever—but in real life, what’s going to happen is that now that the Supreme Court has gotten the verdict it wanted, it will rubber-stamp it without fuss.)
By ‘why’, I mean why do courts keep changing their opinion when the evidence is the same? I know you have written on this subject a lot before (which influenced my opinion) so here are some questions (perhaps some a little basic) I have about the case. (Some may be just rehashing old facts about the case.)
(1) You write that ‘the Supreme Court has gotten the verdict it wanted.’ Why does the Supreme Court want to convict Sollecito and Know? The appeals courts cited ‘a complete dearth of evidence’ when they acquitted Sollecito and Knox—which is what I think. How did the prosecution respond to this?
(2) In the room murder was committed, no DNA evidence pertaining to Knox and Sollecito was found. How does the prosecution explain that only one assailant (Guede) left traces of DNA but the two others left no such traces?
(3) It is said that the evidence shows that Kercher was killed by multiple people. What is your take on this? Do you think it was Guede and some other accomplice? If so, do you think Guede knows more than in fact he admits?
(4) Perhaps most basically, how did Knox and Sollecito get implicated in this crime? I mean there were a lot of witnesses being questioned but how did the police/investigators somehow get the idea that Knox and Sollecito were suspects?
(1) You write that ‘the Supreme Court has gotten the verdict it wanted.’ Why does the Supreme Court want to convict Sollecito and Knox?
Presumably, because they watch the same TV shows as everyone else in Italy, and are convinced that Sollecito and Knox are bad characters, and are furthermore convinced that the Italian public thinks that Sollecito and Knox are bad characters, thus allowing them to play the role of “heroes” doing their duty and standing up for “justice”.
(2) In the room murder was committed, no DNA evidence pertaining to Knox and Sollecito was found. How does the prosecution explain that only one assailant (Guede) left traces of DNA but the two others left no such traces?
Firstly, of course, they claim that the bra clasp DNA counts as a trace left in the room by Sollecito. Secondly, the original lead prosecutor, Giuliano Mignini, at one point speculated that Knox directed the violence from outside the room.
(3) It is said that the evidence shows that Kercher was killed by multiple people. What is your take on this?
It’s just plain wrong, and entirely motivated by the desire to imply that Knox and Sollecito were involved. It’s possible that Guede had one or more accomplices (of whom no trace has been identified), but parsimony argues against it.
(4) Perhaps most basically, how did Knox and Sollecito get implicated in this crime? I mean there were a lot of witnesses being questioned but how did the police/investigators somehow get the idea that Knox and Sollecito were suspects?
They were convenient, vulnerable (no lawyers, unlike the other housemates), and unaware of the specific way in which the investigators apparently expected all innocent humans to behave in such a situation. In short, easy targets for an impatient, quasi-panicked police force in need of a quick “resolution” to the case.
Vagaries of the Italian justice system combined with a heady mix of mob justice
Agreed, but...
nationalism.
That’s not exactly the word I’d use to explain why Italians would think an Italian and his girlfriend would be guilty of the murder of a foreigner, especially when the other suspect is also a foreigner, and from an ethnic group Italians dislike much more than that of Amanda Knox.
When Knox was first convicted of murder, there was outcry in the U.S. that she was wrongfully convicted, based on shoddy evidence. When she was acquitted, there was nearly as much of an outcry in Italy that the courts had succumbed to American pressure.
...
There is a valid extradition agreement between Italy and the U.S., but the U.S. has not set much of a precedence in returning suspects for such matters. Italians point to a number of high-profile cases over the years in which they say American suspects have been accused of wrongdoing and criminal acts, but have been let off lightly.
There’s clearly plenty of opportunity for someone to score political points with this case.
Declaring Knox guilty and in need of extradition which will likely be denied, will make it easier to reject extradition requests from the US, and will have an effect on national public opinion, probably an increase in nationalism in both countries.
Declaring her innocent will be seen at least somewhat as bowing to US pressure and/or acknowledging that the criticism of the Italian justice system was accurate.
This case helps Americans remember that Italy exists.
Politicians sometimes like distractions, and this is a good example. They need to coordinate either the thing to be distracted from with the case, or the case with the thing to be distracted from.
There’s a few more effects, but I suppose the main question is whether the Italian justice system likes to play politics.
The way that nationalism enters is that people feel that criticism of the verdict (especially coming from outsiders, as it mainly does in this case) is an attack on the nation’s institutions (specifically its justice system), and thus on the nation itself.
In other words, if Knox and Sollecito were innocent, that would be a soldier for foreigners to use against Italy, and thus must be defeated at all costs (Sollecito’s nationality notwithstanding).
Well, Italians tend to be quite un-nationalistic in that sense, but yeah, I’m under the impression that some of them would be pissed off by foreigners criticizing Italian institutions even though they would agree with the same criticism coming from a fellow Italian. (As someone-I-can’t-remember-and-Google-is-failing-me said, insults hurt more when they’re truthful.)
EDIT: What paper-machine said seems very relevant. Italians tend to be very pissed off when they perceive Italian institution to succumb to foreign pressure.
especially when the other suspect is also a foreigner, and from an ethnic group Italians dislike much more than that of Amanda Knox.
I wouldn’t be too sure of that. Italians are not likely to be openly racist, but their distrust and even dislike towards non-EU nationals (or “Extracomunitari”) is fairly well-known. Anti-American sentiment is not unknown there either, due in part to the country’s legacy as a sort of “soft-power” battlefield during the Cold War period.
While “extracomunitari” technically includes Americans, it’s not commonly used as a slur against them. It’s mostly used for immigrants from poorer countries, such as North Africans and (before the EU was enlarged) Eastern Europeans.
(There are plenty of anti-American people too, but these tend to be not the same people as those who use “extracomunitari” as a slur.)
Can someone explain the court’s reasoning? I can’t quite follow why Knox and Sollecito were first convicted, then acquitted and yet are convicted once again.
Are you asking about the actual evidence against them? Or more about the procedural path the case took?
Hello,
There have been informed discussions of this subject on LW before.
Particularly to parties informed on the subject: Can someone explain the court’s reasoning? I can’t quite follow why Knox and Sollecito were first convicted, then acquitted and yet are convicted once again.
As is usual in the Italian system, the court itself will publish its “motivations” within 90 days.
If by “why” you mean “how it is procedurally possible”, that can of course be answered now. Italian “trials” have three stages: first-level court, second-level court, and Supreme Court . The original first-level verdict (December 2009) was a conviction (this was the occasion of my original posts here); that was then changed to an acquittal at the second level (October 2011); that acquittal was then canceled by the Supreme Court (March 2013), who ordered a new second-level trial, which has now ended in another conviction. The case will thus go back to the Supreme Court again over the next year or so.
(Yes, this process could theoretically go on forever—but in real life, what’s going to happen is that now that the Supreme Court has gotten the verdict it wanted, it will rubber-stamp it without fuss.)
Hello komponisto,
By ‘why’, I mean why do courts keep changing their opinion when the evidence is the same? I know you have written on this subject a lot before (which influenced my opinion) so here are some questions (perhaps some a little basic) I have about the case. (Some may be just rehashing old facts about the case.)
(1) You write that ‘the Supreme Court has gotten the verdict it wanted.’ Why does the Supreme Court want to convict Sollecito and Know? The appeals courts cited ‘a complete dearth of evidence’ when they acquitted Sollecito and Knox—which is what I think. How did the prosecution respond to this?
(2) In the room murder was committed, no DNA evidence pertaining to Knox and Sollecito was found. How does the prosecution explain that only one assailant (Guede) left traces of DNA but the two others left no such traces?
(3) It is said that the evidence shows that Kercher was killed by multiple people. What is your take on this? Do you think it was Guede and some other accomplice? If so, do you think Guede knows more than in fact he admits?
(4) Perhaps most basically, how did Knox and Sollecito get implicated in this crime? I mean there were a lot of witnesses being questioned but how did the police/investigators somehow get the idea that Knox and Sollecito were suspects?
Thanks.
Presumably, because they watch the same TV shows as everyone else in Italy, and are convinced that Sollecito and Knox are bad characters, and are furthermore convinced that the Italian public thinks that Sollecito and Knox are bad characters, thus allowing them to play the role of “heroes” doing their duty and standing up for “justice”.
Firstly, of course, they claim that the bra clasp DNA counts as a trace left in the room by Sollecito. Secondly, the original lead prosecutor, Giuliano Mignini, at one point speculated that Knox directed the violence from outside the room.
It’s just plain wrong, and entirely motivated by the desire to imply that Knox and Sollecito were involved. It’s possible that Guede had one or more accomplices (of whom no trace has been identified), but parsimony argues against it.
They were convenient, vulnerable (no lawyers, unlike the other housemates), and unaware of the specific way in which the investigators apparently expected all innocent humans to behave in such a situation. In short, easy targets for an impatient, quasi-panicked police force in need of a quick “resolution” to the case.
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.
Vagaries of the Italian justice system combined with a heady mix of mob justice and nationalism.
Agreed, but...
That’s not exactly the word I’d use to explain why Italians would think an Italian and his girlfriend would be guilty of the murder of a foreigner, especially when the other suspect is also a foreigner, and from an ethnic group Italians dislike much more than that of Amanda Knox.
Well, it’s the word I’m using. Here.
There’s clearly plenty of opportunity for someone to score political points with this case.
Declaring Knox guilty and in need of extradition which will likely be denied, will make it easier to reject extradition requests from the US, and will have an effect on national public opinion, probably an increase in nationalism in both countries.
Declaring her innocent will be seen at least somewhat as bowing to US pressure and/or acknowledging that the criticism of the Italian justice system was accurate.
This case helps Americans remember that Italy exists.
Politicians sometimes like distractions, and this is a good example. They need to coordinate either the thing to be distracted from with the case, or the case with the thing to be distracted from.
There’s a few more effects, but I suppose the main question is whether the Italian justice system likes to play politics.
The way that nationalism enters is that people feel that criticism of the verdict (especially coming from outsiders, as it mainly does in this case) is an attack on the nation’s institutions (specifically its justice system), and thus on the nation itself.
In other words, if Knox and Sollecito were innocent, that would be a soldier for foreigners to use against Italy, and thus must be defeated at all costs (Sollecito’s nationality notwithstanding).
Well, Italians tend to be quite un-nationalistic in that sense, but yeah, I’m under the impression that some of them would be pissed off by foreigners criticizing Italian institutions even though they would agree with the same criticism coming from a fellow Italian. (As someone-I-can’t-remember-and-Google-is-failing-me said, insults hurt more when they’re truthful.)
EDIT: What paper-machine said seems very relevant. Italians tend to be very pissed off when they perceive Italian institution to succumb to foreign pressure.
I wouldn’t be too sure of that. Italians are not likely to be openly racist, but their distrust and even dislike towards non-EU nationals (or “Extracomunitari”) is fairly well-known. Anti-American sentiment is not unknown there either, due in part to the country’s legacy as a sort of “soft-power” battlefield during the Cold War period.
While “extracomunitari” technically includes Americans, it’s not commonly used as a slur against them. It’s mostly used for immigrants from poorer countries, such as North Africans and (before the EU was enlarged) Eastern Europeans.
(There are plenty of anti-American people too, but these tend to be not the same people as those who use “extracomunitari” as a slur.)
Are you asking about the actual evidence against them? Or more about the procedural path the case took?