The following argument comes from an intro sociology text:
If there are three people competing, all of different strengths, it is worthwhile for the two weakest people to ban together to defeat the strongest person. This takes out the largest threat. (Specific game-theoretic assumptions were not stated.)
Doesn’t this basically explain the phenomenon? If Zug kills Urk, I might be next! So I should ban together with Urk to defeat Zug. Even if Urk doesn’t reward me at all for the help, my chances against Urk are better than my chances against Zug. (Under certain assumptions.)
Yes, this was my first thought too. Yvain thought of it and said
First, it could be a mechanism to prevent any one person from getting too powerful. Problem is, this sounds kind of like group selection.
It doesn’t sound like group selection to me. How does it harm the group for one person to get very powerful? It is individual selection. When one man or small group dominates the tribe completely, and doesn’t need your help, you don’t get any of the good women.
BTW, EO Wilson has a book out supporting group selection.
“Among the Yanomamo” describes several hunter-gatherer bands. They all (my recollection) had leading men, but in the dysfunctional bands, the leading men were extremely powerful and there was no balance of power. They and their group of about a dozen supporters ruled through fear and exploited the rest of the band shamelessly. Life for those who were not in the key dozen at the top was significantly worse than life for people in the villages that had a different power structure; or at least different personalities in charge who didn’t exhibit endless greed.
(A side note about group selection: This social pattern repeated itself in the groups that spawned off the original “infected” dysfunctional group; and all the other bands in the area hated and feared these dysfunctional groups. They were all aware that these particular bands were “sick” and dangerous and that it would be nice to wipe them out. Sounds like prime territory for some group selection.)
I agree, Yvain said it first, and it doesn’t sound like group selection.
Concerning your group selection comment, that does sound plausible… but being relatively unfamiliar with tribal behavior, I would want to be sure that greedy genes were not spreading between groups before concluding that group selection could actually occur.
The following argument comes from an intro sociology text:
If there are three people competing, all of different strengths, it is worthwhile for the two weakest people to ban together to defeat the strongest person. This takes out the largest threat. (Specific game-theoretic assumptions were not stated.)
Doesn’t this basically explain the phenomenon? If Zug kills Urk, I might be next! So I should ban together with Urk to defeat Zug. Even if Urk doesn’t reward me at all for the help, my chances against Urk are better than my chances against Zug. (Under certain assumptions.)
Yes, this was my first thought too. Yvain thought of it and said
It doesn’t sound like group selection to me. How does it harm the group for one person to get very powerful? It is individual selection. When one man or small group dominates the tribe completely, and doesn’t need your help, you don’t get any of the good women.
BTW, EO Wilson has a book out supporting group selection.
“Among the Yanomamo” describes several hunter-gatherer bands. They all (my recollection) had leading men, but in the dysfunctional bands, the leading men were extremely powerful and there was no balance of power. They and their group of about a dozen supporters ruled through fear and exploited the rest of the band shamelessly. Life for those who were not in the key dozen at the top was significantly worse than life for people in the villages that had a different power structure; or at least different personalities in charge who didn’t exhibit endless greed.
(A side note about group selection: This social pattern repeated itself in the groups that spawned off the original “infected” dysfunctional group; and all the other bands in the area hated and feared these dysfunctional groups. They were all aware that these particular bands were “sick” and dangerous and that it would be nice to wipe them out. Sounds like prime territory for some group selection.)
I agree, Yvain said it first, and it doesn’t sound like group selection.
Concerning your group selection comment, that does sound plausible… but being relatively unfamiliar with tribal behavior, I would want to be sure that greedy genes were not spreading between groups before concluding that group selection could actually occur.