I’m not sure the evidence of the proposed bias supports the type of ev-psych responses being offered.
The only cases I’m aware of underdog bias actually mattering are of the Israel-Palestine type, not the Zug-Urk type. I-P poses no significant costs or benefit to the individual. Z-U poses tremendous costs or benefits to the individual. I don’t imagine I-P type support decisions meaningfully affect reproductive success. Unless there’s evidence that people still side with the underdog when it really costs them something, these ev-psych explanations seem to be explaining something that doesn’t happen.
I would posit that it’s cultural, and it’s fictional availability bias. In all of our stories, the underdog is invariably the good guy. It seems very difficult to tell a story about good giant multinational corporation beats evil little old lady. The reverse has been quite successful. Consequently, we tend to side with the underdog because we generalize from a great deal of fictional evidence that “proves” that the underdog is the good guy. This also explains why we stick with an underdog even when he ceases to be an underdog, as this is a typical pivot point in a story.
This raises the question of why this kind of story is so successful, which I admit I don’t have a great answer to.
Not really. ’Why does “underdog beats overdog” make a more interesting story that “overdog beats underdog” ‘is a very different question from ‘Why do we tend to side with the underdog when no costs are imposed on us?’
Providing an alternative mechanism but not being able to fully explain its causes is hardly begging the question.
Yes, the following i true “Why does “underdog beats overdog” make a more interesting story that “overdog beats underdog” ‘is a very different question from ‘Why do we tend to side with the underdog when no costs are imposed on us?’
But your distinguishing two questions that weren’t distinguished in either your comment or the post. The post asks why we tend to support the underdog. In the initial post the “supporting” consists of verbally saying “I support x” and then, later, identifying with the underdog in a story (i.e. Leonidas and bin Laden). You come back and say well look, maybe our selection of fiction leads us to think the underdog must be the good guy. But as I understood the initial question part of what we were seeking to learn was why we identify with the underdogs in stories. I take identifying with a fictional character to be equivalent to “siding with them without an imposed cost”.
So as I took the initial question your explanation for some of the underdog phenomenon merely attributes the cause to other parts of the phenomenon and fails to get at the root cause. Indeed, nearly every significant pattern in human behavior will have been documented in fiction, so of one could claim fictional availability bias about lots of things (mating rituals, morality, language use, etc.) but its all chicken and egg until you explain HOW THE FICTION GOT THAT WAY.
That’s not begging the question. I don’t see an argument being made with the conclusion as a premise. Perhaps you could be more explicit and concise?
That “underdog beats overdog” makes an interesting story does not require that we side with the underdog. Just like “dog bites man” is less interesting than “man bites dog”, regardless of who you side with.
We side with the underdog.
1A. Polling on Israel-Palestine shows a shift in support given to the side that appears to be the underdog.
1B. Despite being evil we sort of think bin Laden is cool for taking on the US by himself.
1C. When we tell stories we tend to identify with and root for the underdog, i.e. Leonidas.
When we want to know why (1.) I take it that any explanation that includes any of the sub-premises is question begging.
Psychohistorian’s response was that (1) is caused by the fact that in our stories the underdog is always the side we identify with and root for and this leads us to assume that the underdog is the “good side” and therefore side with the underdog. But as I took the question (1) part of what needed explaining was underdog identification in stories.
This mess about what makes an “interesting story” was added after the initial comment and it confuses things. As I took the initial comment the only evidence being presented was the vast collection of pro-underdog stories and the dearth of pro-overdog stories and this was taken to be sufficient lead us to side with the underdog. I don’t think this response is especially helpful because part of our reason for even thinking that there is an underdog bias is the fiction. Throwing in “interesting” adds another step to the argument and this version might not be begging the question anymore (though I’m not convinced of that either).
I’m not sure the evidence of the proposed bias supports the type of ev-psych responses being offered.
The only cases I’m aware of underdog bias actually mattering are of the Israel-Palestine type, not the Zug-Urk type. I-P poses no significant costs or benefit to the individual. Z-U poses tremendous costs or benefits to the individual. I don’t imagine I-P type support decisions meaningfully affect reproductive success. Unless there’s evidence that people still side with the underdog when it really costs them something, these ev-psych explanations seem to be explaining something that doesn’t happen.
I would posit that it’s cultural, and it’s fictional availability bias. In all of our stories, the underdog is invariably the good guy. It seems very difficult to tell a story about good giant multinational corporation beats evil little old lady. The reverse has been quite successful. Consequently, we tend to side with the underdog because we generalize from a great deal of fictional evidence that “proves” that the underdog is the good guy. This also explains why we stick with an underdog even when he ceases to be an underdog, as this is a typical pivot point in a story.
This raises the question of why this kind of story is so successful, which I admit I don’t have a great answer to.
It doesn’t just raise the question, it begs the question.
Not really. ’Why does “underdog beats overdog” make a more interesting story that “overdog beats underdog” ‘is a very different question from ‘Why do we tend to side with the underdog when no costs are imposed on us?’
Providing an alternative mechanism but not being able to fully explain its causes is hardly begging the question.
Yes, the following i true “Why does “underdog beats overdog” make a more interesting story that “overdog beats underdog” ‘is a very different question from ‘Why do we tend to side with the underdog when no costs are imposed on us?’
But your distinguishing two questions that weren’t distinguished in either your comment or the post. The post asks why we tend to support the underdog. In the initial post the “supporting” consists of verbally saying “I support x” and then, later, identifying with the underdog in a story (i.e. Leonidas and bin Laden). You come back and say well look, maybe our selection of fiction leads us to think the underdog must be the good guy. But as I understood the initial question part of what we were seeking to learn was why we identify with the underdogs in stories. I take identifying with a fictional character to be equivalent to “siding with them without an imposed cost”.
So as I took the initial question your explanation for some of the underdog phenomenon merely attributes the cause to other parts of the phenomenon and fails to get at the root cause. Indeed, nearly every significant pattern in human behavior will have been documented in fiction, so of one could claim fictional availability bias about lots of things (mating rituals, morality, language use, etc.) but its all chicken and egg until you explain HOW THE FICTION GOT THAT WAY.
That’s not begging the question. I don’t see an argument being made with the conclusion as a premise. Perhaps you could be more explicit and concise?
That “underdog beats overdog” makes an interesting story does not require that we side with the underdog. Just like “dog bites man” is less interesting than “man bites dog”, regardless of who you side with.
We side with the underdog. 1A. Polling on Israel-Palestine shows a shift in support given to the side that appears to be the underdog. 1B. Despite being evil we sort of think bin Laden is cool for taking on the US by himself. 1C. When we tell stories we tend to identify with and root for the underdog, i.e. Leonidas.
When we want to know why (1.) I take it that any explanation that includes any of the sub-premises is question begging.
Psychohistorian’s response was that (1) is caused by the fact that in our stories the underdog is always the side we identify with and root for and this leads us to assume that the underdog is the “good side” and therefore side with the underdog. But as I took the question (1) part of what needed explaining was underdog identification in stories.
This mess about what makes an “interesting story” was added after the initial comment and it confuses things. As I took the initial comment the only evidence being presented was the vast collection of pro-underdog stories and the dearth of pro-overdog stories and this was taken to be sufficient lead us to side with the underdog. I don’t think this response is especially helpful because part of our reason for even thinking that there is an underdog bias is the fiction. Throwing in “interesting” adds another step to the argument and this version might not be begging the question anymore (though I’m not convinced of that either).
He might have meant ‘begs the question’ in the colloquial sense, which people really should stop doing.
If I had meant this the comment would have made no sense.